Was Clint justified?

[WaxHawk]

And yet Marvel is going to give him a series where he leads street heroes for the common man...what a joke. He kills a innocent man, admits it and he is love for it because people are too stupid to see beyond their limited perspectives.

Here's my two cents, whether they are liked or frowned upon is irrelevant:

1) Greg Pak established firmly that Banner was no longer the Hulk, he did it in a logical and well thought out way where Cho, Banner Himself and Stark said so after going over all the facts. Banner even placed himself in dangerous situations and still did not transform and then gave him a proper send off.

2) I have gone over the panels again and again and the only thing i can conclude is that because of the way Banner is positioned he was hit in side or the back facing away from tree, in either case Barton should never have seen a flicker of emerald if there even was one to begin with.

3) "Assisted Suicide" is just another way to say murder, and Banner was murdered. Because no matter how you slice it, word it or think it at the end of the day a life is still being intentionally taken from another. And that is what this is a premeditated decision to kill someone for something he may do.

4) Barton may THINK he was justified but at his core, if he is still the man he thinks he is then he knows he murdered someone, he killed someone who was a friend all because he let fear get the best of him. And no matter what he does from here on out he will be tainted by this action, it doesn't matter if Jessica, Jennifer or Cho find someway to forgive him or if Banner comes back to life properly (and not as a killing machine for the Hand) he will always have this on him.

Hey Hulkout42,

I get where you are coming from and you have an understandable position given a), from your username I guess you are a Banner fan and b), as I have been saying the writers aren't doing a very good job of making Clint's position one that it is sympathetic. However I'd like to address your points.

1) I'll take your word for this as I haven't read any of those comics.

2) The panel argument doesn't really hold water with me. If you have read The Accused it clearly and unequivocally shows that Clint saw green flickering (note that I don't think that means that Banner was Hulking out). If anyone is looking at this issue with an open mind you at the very least have to consider this fact.

3) For me assisted suicide is nothing like murder. I respect that you have a different opinion though.

4) I disagree with the premise and conclusion you've jumped to (e.g. point 3) but I do agree there is a lot he has to do to be 'redeemed' and basically the forgiveness of those four you mentioned would only be a start. But, I also think the forgiveness from Banner goes both ways as he has put Clint into a difficult situation.

I also think that you have cherry picked your facts a bit as you have ignored any that might support Clint's decision or taken the most negative view possible on any of his actions.

Anyway I want to thank you for your post, I know it is irrelevant to you whether it was liked or not but for me it is one of the best posts in the thread. Over the last week or so I've changed my mind often on this whenever I've given it any thought. After reading this I've categorically ruled out the 4th option (No - not even close), it is probably not what you intended but it what it is.

[Namor'sWrath]

Again, it wasn't really assisted suicide, as Banner didn't want to die when Clint killed him.

[WaxHawk]

Again, it wasn't really assisted suicide, as Banner didn't want to die when Clint killed him.

What I think you mean is that in your opinion it wasn't a justified assisted suicide, a perfectly acceptable conclusion. If that is what you are saying then I agree with you (although there are other factors as well).

But it is the angle that David Walker is taking when he is writing Occupy Avengers, so, presumably (because they haven't sold the concept very well) it is a view that readers are supposed to be at least considering as part of Clint's motivations.

[brettc1]

So in all of these stories, there is apparently only one book where Clint is actuslly shown to see a green flicker, or at least think he sees one.

What a totally shameless grab for money by Marvel.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Cyclops,Stark,Wanda,Namor and Iluminatis in a few years they put the blame on a villain tricking Clint.

Yeah but the fact that their names are even remembered shows that what they did is still affecting their current lives and their reputations It hasn't been forgotten and everything is not back to pre whatever they did.In fact if you look at their current situations, Namor and Cyclops (presumably) were killed off,Stark is still vilified by his peers in the MU and readers/writers alike for what he did in and post Civil War I and Wanda is still ostracised by her fellow mutants for what she did (she is still a mutant? I haven't been keeping up). So I doubt if it will be that easy for people to forgive and forget what Hawkeye did and everything with be back to normality for him.

[Xelossik]

Ken Ashcroft :
High Evolutionary said :"The fraternal twins. They masquerade as mutants."
They are not mutants.

Hulkout42 :

1) Greg Pak established firmly that Banner was no longer the Hulk, he did it in a logical and well thought out way where Cho, Banner Himself and Stark said so after going over all the facts. Banner even placed himself in dangerous situations and still did not transform and then gave him a proper send off.

Yes. That's true. You can't say that this was ignored. You should read comic book : Cap America Steve Rogers issue5

[Knives]

Yeah but the fact that their names are even remembered shows that what they did is still affecting their current lives and their reputations It hasn't been forgotten and everything is not back to pre whatever they did.In fact if you look at their current situations, Namor and Cyclops (presumably) were killed off,Stark is still vilified by his peers in the MU and readers/writers alike for what he did in and post Civil War I and Wanda is still ostracised by her fellow mutants for what she did (she is still a mutant? I haven't been keeping up). So I doubt if it will be that easy for people to forgive and forget what Hawkeye did and everything with be back to normality for him.

Truth after you open a door things will never be the same as Cyclops fan know very well but also learned that no one can predict how things will be in 5 or 10 years.

Clint fans and the character may have difficult times ahead but look at the case of Wanda's character his fans have suffered for a while but now the character has a solo and is one of the main characters with Clint in the movies of the Avengers.

After AvX thought it would be the end for Cyclops but imagine my surprise when fans began a campaign supporting the character Cyclops is Rigth. Of course Cyclops will again be a villain after Death of X but for some reason feel that the inhumans and their fans will be more damaged by this than Cyclops or X-mens with this plot of inhuman mist kill mutants.

If the reputation of Clint and sales are bad someone will clean Bendis mess eventually. Only wish that Bendis never touch the character again.

[Juggernaut Punch]

Clearly, Banner was not looking to die at that moment, and whether he saw a green flicker or not, Clint acted rashly. So he was not in the right. That said, he did have good intentions, though that doesn't really help all that much.

So in all of these stories, there is apparently only one book where Clint is actuslly shown to see a green flicker, or at least think he sees one.

What a totally shameless grab for money by Marvel.

When has a Marvel event not been a shameless grab for money?

[Mike_Murdock]

Clearly, Banner was not looking to die at that moment, and whether he saw a green flicker or not, Clint acted rashly.

I guess the question is whether someone in a rational state of mind can say "this is my wish, please follow it regardless of what I might later think when I'm less rational." To illustrate the point, I'll go with the obvious reverse scenario. If someone says "no matter what happens, I want to live" and, later, in a state of delirium, tells someone to kill them, it's entirely reasonable to follow the original position and ignore the later wish.

I'll also point out, if he was transforming and was aware of it, it's likely his thoughts would have changed at the last second as well and returned to his previously expressed desire. Reading the scene, it sounds to me like he didn't want to be arrested. It certainly didn't sound like he wanted to transform into the Hulk (so his previously expressed desires likely didn't change).

[Juggernaut Punch]

I guess the question is whether someone in a rational state of mind can say "this is my wish, please follow it regardless of what I might later think when I'm less rational." To illustrate the point, I'll go with the obvious reverse scenario. If someone says "no matter what happens, I want to live" and, later, in a state of delirium, tells someone to kill them, it's entirely reasonable to follow the original position and ignore the later wish.

I'll also point out, if he was transforming and was aware of it, it's likely his thoughts would have changed at the last second as well and returned to his previously expressed desire. Reading the scene, it sounds to me like he didn't want to be arrested. It certainly didn't sound like he wanted to transform into the Hulk (so his previously expressed desires likely didn't change).

That's a good point, but there was nothing to indiciate that Banner was turning other than Clint seeing a "green flicker". The transformation isn't instantaneous, if Banner was feeling the change he'd have time to tell someone, and people would have time to react. Clint trusted his eyes above all the data saying that Banner was fine, and the judgements of every other hero there. That to me is a rash judgement, though not one that's too difficult to understand. People make mistakes in the heat of the moment.

[Namor'sWrath]

What I think you mean is that in your opinion it wasn't a justified assisted suicide, a perfectly acceptable conclusion. If that is what you are saying then I agree with you (although there are other factors as well).

But it is the angle that David Walker is taking when he is writing Occupy Avengers, so, presumably (because they haven't sold the concept very well) it is a view that readers are supposed to be at least considering as part of Clint's motivations.

No, I posted what I meant.

[Namor'sWrath]

I guess the question is whether someone in a rational state of mind can say "this is my wish, please follow it regardless of what I might later think when I'm less rational." To illustrate the point, I'll go with the obvious reverse scenario. If someone says "no matter what happens, I want to live" and, later, in a state of delirium, tells someone to kill them, it's entirely reasonable to follow the original position and ignore the later wish.

I'll also point out, if he was transforming and was aware of it, it's likely his thoughts would have changed at the last second as well and returned to his previously expressed desire. Reading the scene, it sounds to me like he didn't want to be arrested. It certainly didn't sound like he wanted to transform into the Hulk (so his previously expressed desires likely didn't change).

The thing is that in your hypothetical scenario, you're erring on the side of not doing anything rash, which is the opposite of what Clint did. If someone asks you to assist in their suicide, then they change their mind and you still kill them, that is murder.

Also, just because someone doesn't want to be arrested certainly doesn't mean they want to be murdered. That's a huge leap in logic.

[Mike_Murdock]

^ That's why I pointed out my final point - there's nothing to indicate he had changed his mind about the fundamental fact that he wanted to die if he started to transform into the Hulk. He just didn't want to die if he didn't (and didn't want to get arrested either).

That's a good point, but there was nothing to indiciate that Banner was turning other than Clint seeing a "green flicker". The transformation isn't instantaneous, if Banner was feeling the change he'd have time to tell someone, and people would have time to react. Clint trusted his eyes above all the data saying that Banner was fine, and the judgements of every other hero there. That to me is a rash judgement, though not one that's too difficult to understand. People make mistakes in the heat of the moment.

Well, I think his eyes turning green would be something that indicated a transformation. It once again goes down to that fundamental question about whether Clint genuinely saw his eyes turn green before he fired. As I said before, we're not meant to know the answer to that question, but I don't think it's a useful debate without at least tackling it from the angle of "let's assume Clint was 100% correct in what he saw and what he was told. Is he justified then?" A lot of the discussion does at least consider it from this side, but "maybe he didn't see the eyes change" doesn't add anything to the conversation.

[WaxHawk]

No, I posted what I meant.

OK. I've obviously missed something.
How do we know that Banner had changed his mind regarding being killed when turning into the Hulk? and more importantly how did Barton know that he had changed his mind?

[WaxHawk]

That's a good point, but there was nothing to indiciate that Banner was turning other than Clint seeing a "green flicker". The transformation isn't instantaneous, if Banner was feeling the change he'd have time to tell someone, and people would have time to react. Clint trusted his eyes above all the data saying that Banner was fine, and the judgements of every other hero there. That to me is a rash judgement, though not one that's too difficult to understand. People make mistakes in the heat of the moment.

What about Ulysses's prediction? Clint, Carol and a whole bunch of others saw this prediction and had been treating as 100% likelihood of happening. Couldn't that be interpreted as further proof that Banner was going to change?