why don't we ever see the detective side of Batman in the movies ?

[AJBopp]

If a Batman movie has the Joker in it, they need to market Joker toys.

If there's any mystery to who is doing the crime and it ends up being the Joker... they need to be able to market those Joker toys before the movie hits.

The only reason the Talia bait and switch worked, at all, is because there's no way they wouldn't make more toys of Bane than Talia, anyway, no matter what the plot. Bane's what you're shoving on all the merchandise. Once you get to more recognizable characters or, to be blunt, male characters, that leeway decreases.

I think you're confusing a detective story with a whodunnit. They are not necessarily the same thing. Outside of the last decade of TV, they aren't even usually the same thing.

See Denny O'Neill's Batman run in the 70s.

[Sighphi]

Yet he didn't know that Clark had a mother named MARTHA!

Why would he be researching Clark?

[Dr Quinch]

Or you know they could make mystery movies like that other English director makes--you know that guy who directed MEMENTO, INSOMNIA, THE PRESTIGE and INCEPTION. What's his name?

I see what you did there...

[Flash Gordon]

I'd like to see Batman take on some real world criminality. Not everything has to boil down to the Penguin. Those classic villains can be in the films, but I'd just like to see more of Batman solving weird crimes.

[Cyke]

I'd like to see Batman take on some real world criminality. Not everything has to boil down to the Penguin. Those classic villains can be in the films, but I'd just like to see more of Batman solving weird crimes.

Agreed. The US in particular has done a pretty crappy job of prosecuting the ones responsible for the recession. They're criminals, too!

[Dr Quinch]

I'd like to see Batman take on some real world criminality. Not everything has to boil down to the Penguin. Those classic villains can be in the films, but I'd just like to see more of Batman solving weird crimes.

The problem there is that "real world" crimes tend not to be particularly weird or cinematic. Mostly they're just kind of sordid and depressing.

[batnbreakfast]

The problem there is that "real world" crimes tend not to be particularly weird or cinematic. Mostly they're just kind of sordid and depressing.

In my head I insert Batman in Boardwalk Empire and Zodiac (David Fincher) or better I imagine them happening in Gotham

[Jim Kelly]

There are many different kinds of Batman detective stories, but one I always wanted to see used for the premise of a movie is "Night of the Stalker" from DETECTIVE COMICS No. 439 (February-March '74).

It's the perfect Batman story. A very simple plot, it could be expanded and lengthened to a feature film. Essentially, a bank robbery gone wrong sees a boy orphaned and reminds Batman of his own tragedy. Too late to stop the criminals, over the course of a night, the Darknight Detective hunts them down one by one. You could increase the number of criminals and say that their boss is one of Batman's rogues (if they really need to use the costumed crooks to sell toys). Batman would have to use his detective skills to track down each crook and trap him (or her). In the original story, Batman doesn't say a word and it's quite effective--but I suppose he'd have to have a few lines in the movie.

[ChrisIII]

Regarding the success of CSI, although it did have a lot of momentum in it's early years, the original and it's three spin offs were all recently cancelled, and the more light-hearted and quirky NCIS and BONES-style crime drama series seem more popular; although there's still some darker stuff out there like Criminal Minds still going fairly strong, although the darker material seems to be mostly on premium cable as well.

[Agent Z]

I'd like to see Batman take on some real world criminality. Not everything has to boil down to the Penguin. Those classic villains can be in the films, but I'd just like to see more of Batman solving weird crimes.

Any crime Penguin commits is bound to be a weird one.

[t hedge coke]

I think you're confusing a detective story with a whodunnit. They are not necessarily the same thing. Outside of the last decade of TV, they aren't even usually the same thing.

No, they're not. But, I was specifically replying to someone in-thread mentioning whodunnits, and not even that, but that specific formula that begins with a false lead that takes up slightly more than half the story before they cotton onto the real criminal, etc.

Someone brought that up, specifically, and I was just detailing why that's not going to work.

[Death&Return of Superman]

No, they're not. But, I was specifically replying to someone in-thread mentioning whodunnits, and not even that, but that specific formula that begins with a false lead that takes up slightly more than half the story before they cotton onto the real criminal, etc.

Someone brought that up, specifically, and I was just detailing why that's not going to work.

Only your point about toys makes no sense, and that seems to be about the extent of why you don't think it would work. Whodunnits usually give you a rogues gallery of who could of dun it. A Batman whodunnit would likely be made up of Batman's rouges gallery. So making a Joker toy wouldn't tell you the Joker dun nothin', because there would also probably be four or five other villains that could have done the deed Batman is looking into. You seem to be thinking about it like some kind of Seven thing, (which isn't how most cop shows work, and that's what that poster was talking about) where the reveal of what the killer looks like is the thing, and we never met him before as a suspect.

But like I already said, if they were trying to keep it a secret that it was the Joker in a Seven scenario (which I guess would mean this Joker isn't leaving playing cards around) they could always sell a first wave of toys before the movie came out that didn't make it clear the Joker was the Joker. Like, if they made Seven action figures back in '99, the first version of John Doe on the shelf could be the hat and trench coat version you only see in shadows painted to look like he's in shadows. After the movie comes out than you get white shirt police station reveal John Doe. Now the Se7en toy line has two John Does, and they didn't even need to make Deep Dive John Doe.

[t hedge coke]

But like I already said, if they were trying to keep it a secret that it was the Joker in a Seven scenario (which I guess would mean this Joker isn't leaving playing cards around) they could always sell a first wave of toys before the movie came out that didn't make it clear the Joker was the Joker. Like, if they made Seven action figures back in '99, the first version of John Doe on the shelf could be the hat and trench coat version you only see in shadows painted to look like he's in shadows. After the movie comes out than you get white shirt police station reveal John Doe. Now the Se7en toy line has two John Does, and they didn't even need to make Deep Dive John Doe.

That's... aside from being years later... Se7en toys are a whole different ballpark than things kids actually play with. Not even the Minors and the Majors. Whole different shape to the park and everything. Different sport.

There's no way that would be a good marketing plan for something as lucrative as Batman. And, if you don't think it comes down to toys, let's remember that it's because of toys, that Harvey Dent isn't just Harvey or Two-Face, he's "Harvey Two-Face."

[Death&Return of Superman]

That's... aside from being years later... Se7en toys are a whole different ballpark than things kids actually play with. Not even the Minors and the Majors. Whole different shape to the park and everything. Different sport.

There's no way that would be a good marketing plan for something as lucrative as Batman. And, if you don't think it comes down to toys, let's remember that it's because of toys, that Harvey Dent isn't just Harvey or Two-Face, he's "Harvey Two-Face."

My stupid point about Se7en toys was as if they were made for kids. Now if they so wished to make such a thing in the '90s, (and if it was a few years earlier it wouldn't have been all that crazy*) and they still wanted to hide what John Doe looked like, they could have done so. If they made a Batman movie where, say, the Joker being behind something was meant to be a secret, and they actually cared about the toys giving that secret about (you're working under the idea that that's something they would care about) there's ways around that. They could easily make a Shadow Joker toy where he wasn't dressed like the Joker (like how in the Killing Joker he isn't dressed normally for him when he shoots Barbara) and the toy is pained as if it's stylistically in shadows. Mask of the Phantasms was a Batman mystery movie, the mystery being: Who is the masked Phantasms? This had no problem making a toy line with the Joker in it.

I hear what you're saying. It's just that what you're saying makes no sense at all. A Whodunnit, and specifically the cop tv show formula on which your reply was about gives you a smorgasbord of options on who could of done it. So it would not matter if they did make Joker toys, because they would also be making four, five, or six other villain toys right along with him because in that scenario Batman would be looking into a number of different bad guys as the culprit. The thing you're saying would **** with the toys would actually give them license to make a number of different villain toys for a Batman movie.

*Actually, it wouldn't have been too crazy a few years after '95 either, given that McFarlane Toys was a thing. And while some may say McFarlane Toys weren't for kids, they still sold them right there next to all the other action figures, so I don't really see how they weren't.