Clone Conspiracy #1

[Pav]

Pav, I refuse to believe Reilly, the guy who sacrificed himself for the man he thought was his clone, would become the Jackal (or even be able to pull off this advanced cloning stuff).
I'll be sad if I'm wrong.

I'll be sad if Ben is brought back as a cackling maniac.

But I'm willing to give Slott a chance to make sense of Ben's motivations - if it even is Ben; and if it's the Ben we truly knew and loved, with no changes in brain chemistry or something - before I dismiss it completely.

Personally, if I found out that I was a clone of the person I thought I really was, I'd be much more likely to live by my own code of ethics - and would perhaps even forgo what I believed in the past (and those beliefs that I felt were put upon me by society) just to see what other avenues of thought and morals might await me. We know how ethical Peter Parker is; perhaps Ben, in an effort to be his own man, has decided to step out of his comfort zone and try to become something truly new but still trying to be his own kind of "good person."

*shrugs*

We'll find out!

-Pav, who isn't worried because head-cannon and future writers make every "bad" story ultimately changeable...

[rward777]

I usually tradewait my Spidey comics, but there was no way I was going to pass up a tale of clones!

First thing's first: the artwork is gorgeous. That always helps.

So we start with Jay's death, which made me consider the deaths under Slott's watch. He tends to do a solid job of providing these instances where death really hits not only Peter hard but the cast members around him. And while maybe it's a little obvious to keep having the deaths hurt JJJ - so as to continue him as an antagonist of Peter/Spidey - it also makes perfect sense to do so in my estimation.

Then we get a conversation between Peter and Anna Maria, and I wonder if Anna Maria's dialogue hints at her eventual face-turn. She point blank says that Peter doesn't deserve her as a friend but that she's stuck with him. I have a feeling she isn't joking around, and that as soon as Doc Ock comes a'calling, Anna Maria is going to leave Pete in the dust.

Then Peter breaks into New U and we get to what is maybe my favorite part of the issue: seeing Jerry Salteres' "body" in that tube. Very, very cool visually and it also shows that the Jackal is not messing around! He's keeping this dude alive despite Jerry missing, y'know, the majority of his body parts! I couldn't help but think that perhaps this shows that no death can't be undone in this story.

Then we see Miles Warren and he's not wearing a costume of any kind.

Why? Because there is NO WAY that he's the Jackal. He's a red herring for sure, you guys.

Rhino and the new Electro take the fight to Spidey, and that's fun. I hate when comics don't have at least one fight. Can't be all talking heads, y'know?

I wonder if Slott decided to go with this female Electro because he - like so many other writers - just haven't stumbled upon a way to make Max Dillon a continually compelling character. The guy has had a few big stories, sure, but they don't even necessarily jive together into a cohesive character arc. And considering Spidey has so few female villains, I could see them substituting this big-name-yet-bland villain for the new female model, just to see if she can stick. Just a guess, of course.

I will say that I'm not a fan of writers having Peter bad-mouth clones. Obviously having a mad scientist out to mess with your head is a pain in the butt, but Peter is supposed to be an intelligent, compassionate guy - and he's already met one clone that became like a brother to him, plus another that is maybe growing on him a bit! So yeah, that's a small thing that kinda bugs me.

And then: Gwen! And not setting off his spider-sense, like Jerry did. We're obviously supposed to believe this shows that she's "real", but I'm not buying it.

UGH. I LOST EVERYTHING I WROTE AFTER THIS POINT. HERE'S ME TRYING TO GET THROUGH IT QUICKLY:

Right now I think Slott is foreshadowing that this Jackal isn't Miles Warren. It's not just the different costume - which reminds me so much of Kaine's Scarlet Spider costume - but his whole modus operandi: he's a mad scientist, sure, but he's also establishing a legitimate business, and Slott has said that this Jackal believes he's doing the right thing, which is a far cry from the raving Jackal of the past who loved his own insanity.

No, I'd know that stubble anywhere: it's the stubble of a Peter Parker clone.

The Jackal is Ben Reilly.

The biggest hint for me is what he says to Gwen about providing her with a second chance - a chance to be someone new and different than what she once was. I'm not sure the specifics of what might've happened to Ben since we saw him last, but it isn't hard for me to believe that he might forgo being a spider-themed superhero in an effort to truly forge his own destiny by taking on the mantle of his greatest enemy and using that power for "good." I think I could buy that. What I hope we don't see is real hatred from Ben towards Peter. Give me a morally grey Ben, but don't make him seek the death of his brother. As a huge fan of the character, I'd hate to see Ben regress like that. Make him more complex, not less. I'm worried about this because the Jackal has done something to these people "helped" by New U which sets off Peter's spider-sense. I'm wondering if it's similar to the "Timebomb" story from the 90s, and eventually the Jackal is going to "flip a switch" and these people will be blood-thirsty for Peter.

Small hiccup with my theory: at one point the Jackal refers to Miles Warren as Gwen's "amazingly talented college professor." Would Ben say that? Maybe it's tongue in cheek. Honestly, I think it's Slott speaking through the character, saying, "Aren't comics kinda silly?" So I wave that bit of dialogue away for now.

The other thing that really makes me lean towards the Jackal being Ben is when he tells Gwen that they can build a better world together, and that he needs her because he doesn't trust himself with this power. That doesn't sound like a truly mad scientist, does it? It sounds like Ben Reilly trying to live up to his new sense of responsibility by being cautious and thoughtful. (Of course, he could just be buttering her up.) Plus, we all know clones of Peter tend to have a thing for Gwen. Perhaps Ben is intent on doing for himself what Peter was never able to do: have a life with Gwen Stacy, the first woman he ever loved.

Good catch, Beorg, on the sinister-looking smile that bookends the back-up story. Does that imply the Jackal is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, including ours, and that his plan is much more diabolical that it seems? Does it imply that the Jackal is actually Norman Osborn? Maybe. Heck, this could be Spidercide 2.0, which the previous Jackal promised he'd make from Kaine's DNA. Or a clone of Peter with Miles Warren's brain.

But I don't think so.

I think Slott decided he had found a compelling way to bring back Ben Reilly.

-Pav, who is excited to see what happens next...

EDIT: Obviously that back-up story leads us to believe that the Gwen who died was actually a clone. On the one hand, that doesn't jive with established history: Miles created the clones of Peter and Gwen due to his grief when she died. It's her death that supposedly pushed him over the edge and into insanity. THAT BEING SAID - and I've never really thought about his before - we know that Warren was shady to begin with, and we know that he collected the blood samples from Peter and Gwen before she died. Why did he do that? Was he always planning on creating a Gwen clone for himself? And does this provide enough wiggle-room in the story for Slott to legitimately and logically show that, yes, it COULD'VE been a clone of Gwen that died that night?

And maybe it's a red herring: Norman might be saying that he doesn't care about her or her life - not that she secretly has no life because she's a clone.

Hm...

I don't think so. In issue 18 Anna Maria was disgusted by Otto's attempt to wipe out humanity by using solar energy to super heat the earth.

[suemorphplus209]

Great to see Gwen back.

I can only hope Dan doesn't do the cliche thing and just kill her all over again. That would be such a waste to maintain the status quo, something Slott has been very good at defying.

spoilers:

The backup story doesn't bother me. Doesn't really make anybody look bad and she's being manipulated by The Jackal, she doesn't know the full story. Gwen's feelings are natural and given time and a full explanation of events, she could come to terms with it and realize Spider-Man was the good guy in that situation.

end of spoilers

That's pretty much the way that I see it. Showing characters come to terms with their situation is something that would be great to have in a story. Always.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

He said it as much. These clones are harvested from DNA in their dead bodies, whereas his prior clones are from DNA from blood samples taken when they are alive.

As far as reanimating dead bodies long after they die, that happens all the time in the Marvel U. It's just that this doesn't seem to be the same situation.

Growing a new body from DNA harvested from the original dead body still makes them clones, as the original body itself is still dead. Doesn't matter whether the subject is dead or alive when the DNA is harvested.

[Southern_Spider]

Hi all! Just created an account to share my theory and discuss current (and past) Spider-books with you fine folks. I'm pasting an email I sent the other day, but I'm in agreement with Pav (you're one of my favorite posters to read, even before I had this account)--I think Ben Reilly is the Jackal.

Hear me out.

We've seen the artists make it a point to give Peter stubble over the last few issues of ASM. The Jackal sports matching brown stubble, along with have a similar body type to Peter as far as we can tell.

This Jackal has been focused on "doing good" in his own twisted sense. This wouldn't be the first time we've seen Ben Reilly (or any clone of Peter, really) stray from the straight and narrow. In his "origin story" back-up feature from ASM #400, J.M. DeMatteis writes him as unwilling to save a crashing bus full of people and encouraging a broken man to commit suicide. He corrects these mistakes later, obviously, but those seeds are there. Add to that the who-knows-what circumstances he may have been through since his death in Spider-Man #75 and we have a recipe for a who guy's a few chemicals short of a web-fluid batch.

This Jackal hasn't been seen until ASM #19 with the usual Warren clones, and it's striking how different they look from him. Instead of the jokey, whimsical Jackal we saw during "Spider-Island" and "Alpha" we have a serious leader who refers to the Warren clones not as "Miles" (like he did before) but as "dupes." In addition, perhaps the addition of Gwen Stacy is symbolic of more than Warren's obsession with Gwen. After all, Gwen was the only love Ben ever knew before being cloned. He has no memories of MJ, Carlie, or anyone else. For him, Gwen was the one--and if he is back among the living, who's to say he couldn't (or wouldn't) bring Gwen back with him?

Like I said, this is probably pretty far-fetched and I don't have a high confidence level that Slott and Lowe would do it, but that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[Rob London]

EDIT: Obviously that back-up story leads us to believe that the Gwen who died was actually a clone. On the one hand, that doesn't jive with established history: Miles created the clones of Peter and Gwen due to his grief when she died. It's her death that supposedly pushed him over the edge and into insanity. THAT BEING SAID - and I've never really thought about his before - we know that Warren was shady to begin with, and we know that he collected the blood samples from Peter and Gwen before she died. Why did he do that? Was he always planning on creating a Gwen clone for himself? And does this provide enough wiggle-room in the story for Slott to legitimately and logically show that, yes, it COULD'VE been a clone of Gwen that died that night?

And maybe it's a red herring: Norman might be saying that he doesn't care about her or her life - not that she secretly has no life because she's a clone.

Hm...

Yeah, I think the Goblin's line to Gwen is drawn from his dismissal of her in ASM #122, rather than a hint that she's a clone:

"LIFE? You talk to me of LIFE? What WORTH is there in the paltry existence of one USELESS FEMALE? A simpering, pointless GIRL, who never did more than OCCUPY SPACE - while I - "

[Tuck]

I usually tradewait my Spidey comics, but there was no way I was going to pass up a tale of clones!

First thing's first: the artwork is gorgeous. That always helps.

So [. . .]

Hm...

[Confuzzled]

Nice touch on the MJ cameo even if it is just out of a family obligation.

Was that Aunt Anna at her side? Haven't seen the elder Watson lady since the May/Jay wedding.

[Tuck]

*Gwen "hating" Peter/Spidey; this reeks of just trying too hard for yet another twist on an old beloved story. First of all, Gwen's love for Peter who she knew very well should trump the misunderstanding that he "killed" Capt Stacy. That whole storyline was flimsy anyway; he tried to save him as he tries to save everyone; the fact that she wouldn't even give him the benefit of the doubt is absurd. PLUS Capt Stacy knew Peter was Spidey and always respected/defended Spidey; wouldn't they discuss this now that they are both resurrected??

With the backup story coming immediately after, the Otto reveal should probably have been held off.

Back-to-back you get Gwen teaming up with her father's killer against Peter - who she's mad at in part because she holds him partially responsible for her father's death - and then showing that she teamed up with Jackal because he brought her father back to life. What???

Obviously things aren't what they seem at present, but the backup seems to undercut the main story there. Without it we just go, "wonder what's going on there?" With it, we're just confused. It goes from a question mark to a muddy mess (which is to be avoided at all costs if we're going to deal with clones again).

[Southern_Spider]

Was that Aunt Anna at her side? Haven't seen the elder Watson lady since the May/Jay wedding.

I do believe so. Nice touch.

[Scott Taylor]

Yeah, I think the Goblin's line to Gwen is drawn from his dismissal of her in ASM #122, rather than a hint that she's a clone:

"LIFE? You talk to me of LIFE? What WORTH is there in the paltry existence of one USELESS FEMALE? A simpering, pointless GIRL, who never did more than OCCUPY SPACE - while I - "

Gee Conway, tell us how you really feel!

[TomSlick]

I doubt any of this **** is going to stick other than maybe Doc Ock (although I'm skeptical that the one that appeared is actually the Doc Ock in the robot).
That said, I'm going to kick back and enjoy the ride.
There's so much speculation and we're only one issue in. Who knows? Maybe Slott kills off reanimated Gwen and her dad in issue 2.

[Huntsman Spider]

Peter: I don't deserve a friend like you, do I?
Anna: No, not really. But I'm stuck with you.

Name one better person than Peter that you know. I challenge you, Anna Maria.

But this was a solid issue overall.

I figured that line was just her being sarcastic as always, not an actual knock on Peter's character from her.

Hi all! Just created an account to share my theory and discuss current (and past) Spider-books with you fine folks. I'm pasting an email I sent the other day, but I'm in agreement with Pav (you're one of my favorite posters to read, even before I had this account)--I think Ben Reilly is the Jackal.

Hear me out.

We've seen the artists make it a point to give Peter stubble over the last few issues of ASM. The Jackal sports matching brown stubble, along with have a similar body type to Peter as far as we can tell.

This Jackal has been focused on "doing good" in his own twisted sense. This wouldn't be the first time we've seen Ben Reilly (or any clone of Peter, really) stray from the straight and narrow. In his "origin story" back-up feature from ASM #400, J.M. DeMatteis writes him as unwilling to save a crashing bus full of people and encouraging a broken man to commit suicide. He corrects these mistakes later, obviously, but those seeds are there. Add to that the who-knows-what circumstances he may have been through since his death in Spider-Man #75 and we have a recipe for a who guy's a few chemicals short of a web-fluid batch.

This Jackal hasn't been seen until ASM #19 with the usual Warren clones, and it's striking how different they look from him. Instead of the jokey, whimsical Jackal we saw during "Spider-Island" and "Alpha" we have a serious leader who refers to the Warren clones not as "Miles" (like he did before) but as "dupes." In addition, perhaps the addition of Gwen Stacy is symbolic of more than Warren's obsession with Gwen. After all, Gwen was the only love Ben ever knew before being cloned. He has no memories of MJ, Carlie, or anyone else. For him, Gwen was the one--and if he is back among the living, who's to say he couldn't (or wouldn't) bring Gwen back with him?

Like I said, this is probably pretty far-fetched and I don't have a high confidence level that Slott and Lowe would do it, but that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

On the subject of him encouraging a broken man to kill himself, that stemmed more from Ben's own self-loathing after finding out that he was a clone, his own perception that he shouldn't exist. In the same backup story arc, Ben tried to drink himself to death and when that didn't work started picking fights in the hopes the bartender would shoot him dead. If Ben's become the new Jackal, that might ultimately stem from him trying to find something truly worthwhile about himself and his own existence, repurposing the Jackal's name and legacy in order to make the world a better place (in his mind), sort of like Alchemax CEO Peter Parker 2099 from Spider-Man: Edge of Time.

Yeah, I think the Goblin's line to Gwen is drawn from his dismissal of her in ASM #122, rather than a hint that she's a clone:

"LIFE? You talk to me of LIFE? What WORTH is there in the paltry existence of one USELESS FEMALE? A simpering, pointless GIRL, who never did more than OCCUPY SPACE - while I - "

Yeah, for more recent readers who got to know Norman during his 2000s stories, particularly Dark Reign, his misogyny did not come out nowhere. All the same, the pattern of Peter's love interests and other relevant female supporting characters increasingly turning cold and antagonistic toward him, if not full-on villainous, repeats yet again, unfortunately. However, I am in the category of people who hopes that Gwen, clone or not, works through her feelings of betrayal and heartache and realizes that Peter isn't the bad guy here.

[stillanerd]

Okay, I admit, Clone Conspiracy #1 wasn't too bad for an opening chapter of a Spider-Man event. And thank goodness Slott did NOT do what I was afraid he was going to do in that back-up story, in that I was afraid he'd reveal the real Gwen never died and that one who did was really her clone. But it does have a fundamental flaw with it's very premise. Just because the Jackal (or rather the person who claims they're the Jackal) are calling the clones "reanimations" doesn't actually make them. Especially when the process he's using is still cloning, with the only differences being when he harvested their DNA and how much they remember.

Oh, and BTW, after this issue, I'm totally leaning towards the idea this The Jackal isn't really Miles Warren but an evil Peter Parker clone impersonating Miles Warren. And if so, how hilarious would it be if this was Spidercide?

Stillanerd Reviews: Spider-Man: The Clone Conspiracy #1

[Probalus]

Growing a new body from DNA harvested from the original dead body still makes them clones, as the original body itself is still dead. Doesn't matter whether the subject is dead or alive when the DNA is harvested.

I know. That's why I called them clones.

But with the variety of different ways Marvel characters get revived, reanimated, whatever you call it, does it matter? If they have all of the memories of the original and the original no longer exist, then who cares if they are a clone or not? I can think of a number of characters that are "revived" in similar ways, basically their bodies are regenerated from remains and they are revived. Whatever cloning method Jackal uses, he's also taking remains from the dead body and regenerating it, so... semantics.