Clone Conspiracy #1

[Tuck]

yeah, i agree. which is what the whole teletransportation paradox explores in the context of morality. from that exercise, some scientists expressed that from a non-ego standpoint - it is the same. the same constant is present in the universe and there is no difference. as long as the original is destroyed (which is where the moral dilemma comes in)

That's a whopper of a hand wave.

[Pav]

Hi all! Just created an account to share my theory and discuss current (and past) Spider-books with you fine folks. I'm pasting an email I sent the other day, but I'm in agreement with Pav (you're one of my favorite posters to read, even before I had this account).

Thanks, friend! Awesome to have you posting with us!

Um... I'm sorry?

It's like what Rusty Venture says, while arguing with his necromancer neighbor about the ethics of cloning his dead sons. "Church - lab. Soul - synapses. Purgatory - computer. Get over yourself."

Keep the Venture Bros comparisons coming, please and thank you.

-Pav, who wishes he didn't have to wait so long between VB seasons...

[Webhead]

My simple, naive outlook on it is, if a clone tries to kill their genetic template and take over the original's life, they won't be accepted; in a direct, logical outcome, the same should happen if the original person was dead from circumstances that had nothing to do with the clone.

Unrelated thoughts. Maybe the Jackal is actually a Reverse-Samson and has to cut his beard to keep his amazing resurrection powers working. Hence, stubble.

[boots]

That's a whopper of a hand wave.

i wouldn't be happy with it irl haha. and i'm sure, faced with the choice themselves, neither would they.

[boots]

My simple, naive outlook on it is, if a clone tries to kill their genetic template and take over the original's life, they won't be accepted; in a direct, logical outcome, the same should happen if the original person was dead from circumstances that had nothing to do with the clone.

yeah, but the experiment posits that either the original voluntarily dies in order to be replaced or is unaware of the death.

[Southern_Spider]

On the subject of him encouraging a broken man to kill himself, that stemmed more from Ben's own self-loathing after finding out that he was a clone, his own perception that he shouldn't exist. In the same backup story arc, Ben tried to drink himself to death and when that didn't work started picking fights in the hopes the bartender would shoot him dead. If Ben's become the new Jackal, that might ultimately stem from him trying to find something truly worthwhile about himself and his own existence, repurposing the Jackal's name and legacy in order to make the world a better place (in his mind), sort of like Alchemax CEO Peter Parker 2099 from Spider-Man: Edge of Time.

Valid points--all I'm trying to say is that this darkness has been showcased in Ben before. It lurks within him (as it does all of us). And let's be serious, Slott has never been one to let established character get in the way of story.

I know. That's why I called them clones.

But with the variety of different ways Marvel characters get revived, reanimated, whatever you call it, does it matter? If they have all of the memories of the original and the original no longer exist, then who cares if they are a clone or not? I can think of a number of characters that are "revived" in similar ways, basically their bodies are regenerated from remains and they are revived. Whatever cloning method Jackal uses, he's also taking remains from the dead body and regenerating it, so... semantics.

Well, the difference is they still have to take that little red-and-blue pill (capsule?) to survive once a day. That is really bothering me. It needs a legit explanation, but I'm scared it's gonna be another Slott ex machina.

depending on how closely they stick to continuity, in the above mentioned back up story in the 90s clone saga, ben does already have feelings for mj. he wakes up after his original fight with peter and swings home to get changed (thinking he is the original) and finds peter already there with mj. it's also why kaine was so obsessed with mj at the time, because somewhere in the back of his "genetic memory" was an attachment to her and all of peter's loved ones.

Good point, I had forgotten about that story beat. I would assume that's why Ben had a thing for red-headed Janine and Kaine for red-headed Louise(?). But it doesn't seem like it would be very problematic for Slott to not acknowledge that and use the logic that Ben loved Gwen (that rhymes) and wants to be with her upon her "resurrection/rebirth/cloning" whatever.

Thanks, friend! Awesome to have you posting with us!

Many thanks, Pav. It's good to be here.

[boots]

Good point, I had forgotten about that story beat. I would assume that's why Ben had a thing for red-headed Janine and Kaine for red-headed Louise(?). But it doesn't seem like it would be very problematic for Slott to not acknowledge that and use the logic that Ben loved Gwen (that rhymes) and wants to be with her upon her "resurrection/rebirth/cloning" whatever.

yep, agreed. not hard to make it work. ben had five years on his own, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that he went into his memories and put gwen on a pedestal as a love he could have to himself while "the real" peter had mj.

just read the comic, my brief reactions. spoilers, so skip if you need to:

* overall, interesting set up. nothing that wows me yet, but nothing that turns me off.

* i like anna maria.

* myles warren sans jackal mask is an obvious red herring as pav said.

* female electro does admit to being a clone but also talks as if there is a continuation of consciousness from the time of death in her original body to her rebirth in the cloned version. so all bets are still off here. also, unlike old school i don't see this as shoe horning. villains have been replaced before (hobgoblin, green goblin, carnage, scorpion etc). it's just that when they're not replaced by other white males, it seems to be all the more noticeable.

* gwen doesn't die with hate in heart, she dies hurt and in shock. totally understandable.

* evidence for jackal as ben reilly. for: uhm...stubble? against: saying that he needed gwen because she was a good person and he couldn't trust himself. ben was as good as they come. so unlike pav, i'm putting this in the negative column.

*the parallel smiles between gobs and jackal are also interesting. could be that jackal is a goblin. spidercide? not ruling anything out. would be nice to give that character an actual personality and makes more sense with the above ben reilly stuff.

overall, decent issue with set up for a whole bunch of plot twists.

[oldschool]

Re-read the issue last night and had a different (maybe outta left-field) idea about the identity of The Jackal----maybe it's Harry Osborn?

*Haven't seen him much in recent years until he started working for Peter at PI (thanks, Probalus for the correction). He didn't appear suspicious in those appearances but we all know Harry's troubled history.....it doesn't seem to take much to set him off the rails again.

*The Jackal said he needed Gwen, that he didn't trust himself to do the right thing in this issue. Harry was always insecure and dated Gwen before Peter; in fact, Gwen was by his side during his problems with addiction right up until the end.

*Harry would have access to Osborn equipment and biotech to pull this off----with Warren's info and/or assistance, willing or not.

*Lastly, the noted smile that bookends the backup tale (Green Goblin and Jackal) also works for Harry, not just Norman as most of us assumed.


Like I said, kinda left field idea but it could be a cool twist.....

[Probalus]

Harry's been working at Parker Industries.. we saw him a few times this volume. Doesn't seem suspicious at all, though what you said is certainly possible.

[oldschool]

Harry's been working at Parker Industries.. we saw him a few times this volume. Doesn't seem suspicious at all, though what you said is certainly possible.

Sorry, you're right.....I forgot about those appearances. Still.....it could work.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

I know. That's why I called them clones.

But with the variety of different ways Marvel characters get revived, reanimated, whatever you call it, does it matter? If they have all of the memories of the original and the original no longer exist, then who cares if they are a clone or not? I can think of a number of characters that are "revived" in similar ways, basically their bodies are regenerated from remains and they are revived. Whatever cloning method Jackal uses, he's also taking remains from the dead body and regenerating it, so... semantics.

I agree. To me, a clone is a person too, just one who happened to be born by unconventional means. But there are a large contingent of people who don't see clones as real people. So I was just using semantics to clarify what differentiates a clone from a reanimated person.

[Pav]

Good point, I had forgotten about that story beat. I would assume that's why Ben had a thing for red-headed Janine and Kaine for red-headed Louise(?).

Also! Ben had a thing for Firestar while he was a member of the New Warriors. In fact, if I recall correctly, he even made a super quick reference that she reminded him of MJ.

-Pav, who shipped Ben and Angelica hard...

[Southern_Spider]

yep, agreed. not hard to make it work. ben had five years on his own, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that he went into his memories and put gwen on a pedestal as a love he could have to himself while "the real" peter had mj.

Exactly. Easy to work around while being respectful of what's come before.

* female electro does admit to being a clone but also talks as if there is a continuation of consciousness from the time of death in her original body to her rebirth in the cloned version. so all bets are still off here.

Same thing happened with the Gwen who woke up in the backup. Her first thought upon awakening was finishing the last thought she had before it was interrupted by her death.

* evidence for jackal as ben reilly. for: uhm...stubble? against: saying that he needed gwen because she was a good person and he couldn't trust himself. ben was as good as they come. so unlike pav, i'm putting this in the negative column.

I tend to agree more with Pav's assessment, though that could just be wishful thinking.

*the parallel smiles between gobs and jackal are also interesting. could be that jackal is a goblin. spidercide? not ruling anything out. would be nice to give that character an actual personality and makes more sense with the above ben reilly stuff.

I don't really want to see it happen (holding out hope for Ben........still.....) but the Spidercide 2.0 theory isn't a bad one. It certainly hasn't been brought up since that issue of Superior Team-Up.

Re-read the issue last night and had a different (maybe outta left-field) idea about the identity of The Jackal----maybe it's Harry Osborn?

You bring up some really interesting points here. AFAIK we haven't seen Harry with facial hair since pre-Superior when he was in Portland and not with stubble in Vol. 4 for sure. Doesn't negate the theory though, but it does seem pretty unlikely to me. The biggest clue in favor of this IMO is the parallel smiles.

Also! Ben had a thing for Firestar while he was a member of the New Warriors. In fact, if I recall correctly, he even made a super quick reference that she reminded him of MJ.

-Pav, who shipped Ben and Angelica hard...

That was a fun little romance. Wasn't Firestar super pissed when he was being framed during that horrendous digital Scarlet Spider fiasco.

[Southern_Spider]

OH BY THE WAY!

Did anyone else notice that Anna Maria TOTALLY LEAKED Spider-Man's secret identity to Bella Fishbach at Horizon University during the main story?

Proof below. Noticed this on my second reading:

She totally went from "Hey, Spidey" to "I miss my robot, Peter" in the same conversation in front of Bella. Is this carelessness on Slott's part, or did Anna Maria really just spill the beans? Will this be ignored or a plot point moving forward?

[Montressor]

lol, I wonder if that was intentional...if so, why? Looks like a mistake to me, but maybe Slott has noticed it by now and will work it into something a couple hundred issues from now.

I mean--if it's intentional, isn't that an odd way to work that in? Would she be that careless in front of others?