Dead white a-holes who wrote some good stuff

[Kai "the spy"]

Lesson number one: Don't start your thread with a racial title implying said race is already bad.

Was it so hard to leave that out OP? Why are we supposed to talk just about WHITE authors? Are non-white racist writers good people now?

But that's not what the thread title implies. It just says "Dead white a-holes", all are different attributes. If you read them as being synonymous with each other, that's not the thread title's (or the OP's) fault.

Now, if you want to tell us something about any non-white racist writers, I'd be all ears. Please, do.

[Moon Ronin]

But that's not what the thread title implies. It just says "Dead white a-holes", all are different attributes. If you read them as being synonymous with each other, that's not the thread title's (or the OP's) fault.

Now, if you want to tell us something about any non-white racist writers, I'd be all ears. Please, do.

I think the point he is trying to make is why have white in the title at all, why not just "Dead A-Holes who wrote some good stuff"? It would have been just as effective and on one could miss read the title.

Any way we look at them as if they are A-Holes by today's standards and the social norms of now but, in most of their times there were not considered A-holes they were just like every body else, some even more progressive for the there time. It's like saying Morons of the past who thought the wold was flat... B.O.B. doesn't count!

[Shawn Hopkins]

For all of the complaining about political correctness and such from the right, you never hear more crying and butthurt than when one criticizes white males.

[Kai "the spy"]

I think the point he is trying to make is why have white in the title at all, why not just "Dead A-Holes who wrote some good stuff"? It would have been just as effective and on one could miss read the title.

But this point has been made before, and the OP has elaborated on it since. Asked and answered.

Any way we look at lot that they were A-Holes by today's standards a the social norms of now but in most of their times there were not considered A-holes they were just like every body else some even more progressive for the time time. It's like saying Morons of the past who thought the wold was flat... B.O.B. doesn't count!

Well, yes, but that also has been part of the discussion from the start. I myself, as first one to reply to the OP, noted Ian Fleming as a case of a well-meaning progressive for his time, and only unintentional racist. Others have come up with other examples.

[Moon Ronin]

But this point has been made before, and the OP has elaborated on it since. Asked and answered.



Well, yes, but that also has been part of the discussion from the start. I myself, as first one to reply to the OP, noted Ian Fleming as a case of a well-meaning progressive for his time, and only unintentional racist. Others have come up with other examples.

Well then if the OP has done that I see no need for anyone push the matter further.

[codystarbuck]

Getting back to the original question, about great writers with questionable beliefs or actions, Greg Hatcher has a great column on this, this week:

http://atomicjunkshop.com/2016/10/18...lem-card-line/

[ouroboros]

Prisoner 66. etc. said:

Howard & Lovecraft were both severely mentally ill

Just registering my complete disagreement with this assessment.

[bloodofthegods]

For all of the complaining about political correctness and such from the right, you never hear more crying and butthurt than when one criticizes white males.

Well seeing you are one of the biggest proponents of selective racism your statement here only cements the fact that trolling certain races on this forum are allowed. And will send this forum down the same path it was before where people posted death threats over a fucking comic book cover. And you are the Houdini of avoiding moderations for your bad posting.

[Prisoner 6655321]

Prisoner 66. etc. said:



Just registering my complete disagreement with this assessment.

Noted... but I mean, while I'm no kinda doctor nor have I met them.... Howard did kill himself at thirty or so and while I imagine not every single person who kills themselves does so due to mental illness I think it's fairly safe to say that most do. As for mister Lovecraft he was a known recluse with a number of neurosis and while that alone doesn't scream "mental illness" as much as it whispers it, both of his parents died in a mental hospital. So, while I don't have a time machine or a degree in psychology I feel pretty safe in saying those guys both had some mental health issues. I'm not suggesting that they were racist because of them or that all racists are "crazy" (you can be wrong and not crazy).

As a note, I get that some people don't like the term "crazy" to explain mental illness. I apologize, but in this case I'm speaking of really vague mental health issues of long dead folks. I wouldn't assume what sort of mental illness these guys suffered only that it was significant enough to affect both of their lives.

[Prisoner 6655321]

This isn't some form of "selective racism" (put in quotes because it's a nonsense term like man... that song seems strangely apt for so many instances of people talking about such things like "pc culture or whatever".... ),this is reality.

If you can think of any prolific writers of English-language (or at least with widely distributed translations) fiction (or a-political creative non-fiction for that matter) who are also dead AND also had notably problematic views (once again, this is not talking about people who write stuff like political philosophy and manifestos) regarding race, gender or anything along those lines. Please, by all means, mention them. I'm not saying that I absolutely don't believe that any exist only that I don't know of any. There are historical reasons for this that may not reflect negatively on individual (white) writers who wrote in the past but say some pretty clear things about “culture” until pretty recently (and that's not me saying “problem solved”). It's not, Dickens fault that he didn't have a whole lot of non-white peers (though he did have some, while he didn't write in English, Dumas was notably of mixed ancestry and Dickens's contemporary but not particularly problematic unless you count his numerous affairs... but that was kinda par for course for nineteenth century French aristocrats).

The relevance of my usage of the term “white” in the title is as such. A hundred years ago, if you were writing a book and included all sorts of nasty things about “non-white” folks no one would have batted an eye. It happened all the time. If a “non-white” were to have done the same regarding “white folks” the book would have never been published and they'd perhaps be lynched, or something like that… I'm not suggesting that we should go back and edit peoples work to fit with the times, nor am I suggesting that individuals boycott certain dead writers. I am suggesting that individuals should read such works with full awareness of who produced them and if they maybe had some kinda agenda.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Noted... but I mean, while I'm no kinda doctor nor have I met them.... Howard did kill himself at thirty or so and while I imagine not every single person who kills themselves does so due to mental illness I think it's fairly safe to say that most do. As for mister Lovecraft he was a known recluse with a number of neurosis and while that alone doesn't scream "mental illness" as much as it whispers it, both of his parents died in a mental hospital. So, while I don't have a time machine or a degree in psychology I feel pretty safe in saying those guys both had some mental health issues. I'm not suggesting that they were racist because of them or that all racists are "crazy" (you can be wrong and not crazy).

As a note, I get that some people don't like the term "crazy" to explain mental illness. I apologize, but in this case I'm speaking of really vague mental health issues of long dead folks. I wouldn't assume what sort of mental illness these guys suffered only that it was significant enough to affect both of their lives.

I don't know about Lovecraft but simply examining Howard's life is enough to realize he had some serious problems with depression.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Well seeing you are one of the biggest proponents of selective racism your statement here only cements the fact that trolling certain races on this forum are allowed. And will send this forum down the same path it was before where people posted death threats over a fucking comic book cover. And you are the Houdini of avoiding moderations for your bad posting.

What is selective racism, is that like selective service? I am not for racism against white people. I'm white. I've never experienced racism but I get the idea it's not very nice, so no thank you. I do like to point out that there's a white supremacist double-standard where criticizing other races is just being an honest, free-thinker and "not PC," but even the mildest criticism of white people or the past actions of white people draws certain people to screaming fits, as we've seen in this thread.

Not that bashing white people was the point of this thread, at all. It's just the age-old question of whether it's possible to forget the author and enjoy the work. Jungle Book, for example, is a racist book written by a racist man. But it's a damn fine piece of literature. How do we navigate that and enjoy it today? The controversial title is just a tongue-in-cheek reference to the true fact that most of that stuff, as was most of Western literature, was written by dead white people who held views that wouldn't be acceptable today.

If I'm not getting moderations for my "bad posting," maybe it's not quite so bad?

[aja_christopher]

What is selective racism, is that like selective service? I am not for racism against white people. I'm white. I've never experienced racism but I get the idea it's not very nice, so no thank you. I do like to point out that there's a white supremacist double-standard where criticizing other races is just being an honest, free-thinker and "not PC," but even the mildest criticism of white people or the past actions of white people draws certain people to screaming fits, as we've seen in this thread.

I just want to step up here and say that I appreciate you taking the time and effort to write that out and say what needs to be said.

As a person of color (black male) any comment I make on said issue will always be viewed by said lens, which is why it's important that people like you speak out and openly about the double-standard of racism and discrimination in this country that has been implicit since it's very foundation (by quite a few slaveowners hypocritically advocating that all men were created equal).

Even in said example (Washington, for instance) we can see that even America's most cherished icons would be viewed as pariahs in our time. Given said history, it falls upon us as inheritors of an undeniably racist legacy to address these issues openly and directly, and not pretend as if subjects like "white supremacy" and "institutionalized racism" are direct attacks on ALL white people, nor that the personal flaws of certain individuals (of all backgrounds) make their contributions to the humanities any less relevant... whether for better or for worse.

Gandhi was a known racist (against blacks), yet he inspired Martin Luther King Jr to fight against racism in America.

That said -- he was still a racist and there is nothing to be gained by not addressing such issues both objectively and directly, no matter how complex they might be.

[ouroboros]

Well seeing you are one of the biggest proponents of selective racism your statement here only cements the fact that trolling certain races on this forum are allowed. And will send this forum down the same path it was before where people posted death threats over a fucking comic book cover. And you are the Houdini of avoiding moderations for your bad posting.

Nicely put.

[ouroboros]

Noted... but I mean, while I'm no kinda doctor nor have I met them.... Howard did kill himself at thirty or so and while I imagine not every single person who kills themselves does so due to mental illness I think it's fairly safe to say that most do. As for mister Lovecraft he was a known recluse with a number of neurosis and while that alone doesn't scream "mental illness" as much as it whispers it, both of his parents died in a mental hospital. So, while I don't have a time machine or a degree in psychology I feel pretty safe in saying those guys both had some mental health issues. I'm not suggesting that they were racist because of them or that all racists are "crazy" (you can be wrong and not crazy).

As a note, I get that some people don't like the term "crazy" to explain mental illness. I apologize, but in this case I'm speaking of really vague mental health issues of long dead folks. I wouldn't assume what sort of mental illness these guys suffered only that it was significant enough to affect both of their lives.

We're agreed that one can't correlate craziness and racism, at least.

As you anticipate, my main issue has to do with post-diagnosing certain writers as clinically insane when they were, to the best of knowledge, never so diagnosed in their lifetimes.

Being insane, as I'm sure you know, is more than just not being able to work through your familial issues. There are hundreds of people who, as much as Howard and Lovecraft in their lifetimes, who may engage in self-destructive behavior but are still essentially competent to handle their daily affairs. Howard's incredible output is said to have made him the wealthiest man in Cross Plains at one point in time, and HPL, though perhaps morbidly attached to his beloved New England, did manage to keep body and soul together for a considerable period of time.

The fate of HPL's parents may or may not affected his own mental stability, but it's hard to say that they were technically mental cases. HPL apparently never admitted that his father's illness was anything but a mental breakdown, but it's been widely speculated that the father's symptoms may have been due to untreated paresis. Whether or not the mother's later death was purely mental, or related to health issues, is also something on which we can only speculate.

It's been a while since I read one of Howard's biographies, but I seem to remember the opinion being advanced that his suicide was more of an impulse thing than a syndrome. But I don't claim to have read as much on REH, and I'll admit that it's fair to at least wonder about the line separating eccentricity from incompetence.