Ultimates^2 (Squared) Preview... (Civil War II Spoilers)

[JKtheMac]

I would have made the same observation regardless of gender.

This isn't a group with an established leader, yet Carol treated it like it was her personal strike team and led them down the primrose path to their inevitable end. What's even more annoying is that she gets a chance to be with the team in U2, after the Ulysses disaster. The really funny part was all it really took to convince Carol that she was wrong was for MAC to take her on a field trip to an alternate Earth where the Ulysses fiasco went horribly wrong; far more disastrous than in the mainstream timeline. They could have saved us the trouble and did that in the first issue and spared us a pathetic CW hero vs. hero "event."

I'm glad that the team is finally moving on to actually dealing with cosmic crises. I just wish they were doing it sans Carol. I no longer have any interest whatsoever in that character.

"I might've failed to mention that this chick was creative
Once the man got to her, he altered her native
Told her if she got an image and a gimmick
That she could make money, and she did it like a dummy

Now I see her in commercials, she's universal
She used to only swing it with the inner-city circle
Now she be in the burbs, looking rock and dressing hippie
And on some dumb sh**, when she comes to the city...."

I wonder if you read the Captain Marvel issues. I was thinking Carol was acting strange and a little out of character in most of the event, but when I finally got around to the Captain Marvel issues it made a lot more sense to me. In that T'Challa is acting as oversight and Carol is conflicted but doing what she thinks is best on balance, not through dogma. I don't think that element was explained very well in the actual event which does call into question how well the event was written and how the tie-ins were presented.

The use of various teams was explained as related to jurisdiction, and even that convenience was scrutinised based on how Ulysses' powers worked. Where teams had a wider jurisdiction the concern was that Ulysses may be being provided with incomplete or politically loaded information. Indeed, despite Bendis dropping key words like profiling and trying to use real world analogy, the only time this worked for me was in Captain Marvel. Indeed reading those was a redemption for the event as a whole, and without them I would probably have given up reading CWII.

[JudicatorPrime]

kind of besides the point. I'm saying that tony stark and steve rogers have done similar. tony thought that he was in charge of the illuminati, at some points. remember Cap taking it upon himself to use one of the gems?

I'm not disagreeing that others have done it. I'm saying whether male or female, it's not a good look. I hate that manner of arrogance in heroes. Sometimes in the heat of battle an executive decision has to be made. I get that. But this isn't that.

[JudicatorPrime]

I wonder if you read the Captain Marvel issues. I was thinking Carol was acting strange and a little out of character in most of the event, but when I finally got around to the Captain Marvel issues it made a lot more sense to me. In that T'Challa is acting as oversight and Carol is conflicted but doing what she thinks is best on balance, not through dogma. I don't think that element was explained very well in the actual event which does call into question how well the event was written and how the tie-ins were presented.

The use of various teams was explained as related to jurisdiction, and even that convenience was scrutinised based on how Ulysses' powers worked. Where teams had a wider jurisdiction the concern was that Ulysses may be being provided with incomplete or politically loaded information. Indeed, despite Bendis dropping key words like profiling and trying to use real world analogy, the only time this worked for me was in Captain Marvel. Indeed reading those was a redemption for the event as a whole, and without them I would probably have given up reading CWII.

I haven't read the Captain Marvel issues. You're right, there may be more detail there that I've missed. Still, for continuity's sake, you'd think Ewing would have made any audience-pertinent info available in Ultimates. A simple notation and/or asterisk would have helped with the broader perspective.

Later this weekend I plan to go back and re-read Ultimates 1-11. (By the way, for those of you who haven't picked up issue #12 yet, it's out now. Go get it.) I have to figure out where Ewing went wrong. This series had so much promise, but ultimately left me disappointed. A good series should leave you with a dog-eared, spine-broken, well-weathered set of comics simply from having read them over and over and over again. Unless something sparks on the second read, it's safe to say that if these were paper and not digital, there'd be no danger of them being anything less than NM condition.

[Michael Watkins]

I'm not disagreeing that others have done it. I'm saying whether male or female, it's not a good look. I hate that manner of arrogance in heroes. Sometimes in the heat of battle an executive decision has to be made. I get that. But this isn't that.

fair enough. i'm just saying that, ultimately, she is being who she has to be; in order to be taken seriously (like Cap and Iron Man). to be on top, you have to make enemies. name me a popular character and i'll show you someone who has been on the receiving end of internet hate.

[JudicatorPrime]

fair enough. i'm just saying that, ultimately, she is being who she has to be; in order to be taken seriously (like Cap and Iron Man). to be on top, you have to make enemies. name me a popular character and i'll show you someone who has been on the receiving end of internet hate.

You don't think that Carol could "lean in" using a different approach and come off as more judicial and circumspect? Because I absolutely think that she can. I followed her since her first series back in the 70's. This Carol is not that Carol. I understand that leadership and resentment/enmity go hand in hand. But my point was that no one asked Carol to be the leader, she exploited the co-op structure to promote her own agenda. That's the flaw in her approach here. Anyone that does that, no matter how the story is written, is being anything but a good, effective leader.

I don't object to Carol following her personal vision of what a great leader is. That approach would be highly effective in other team environments. Just not the Ultimates.

[Michael Watkins]

You don't think that Carol could "lean in" using a different approach and come off as more judicial and circumspect? Because I absolutely think that she can.

she does in her solo series. her issues now are related to being second-guessed and backstabbed by her supposed colleagues; who have toyed with the fate of the world in the past.

[GrandEleven]

kind of besides the point. I'm saying that tony stark and steve rogers have done similar. tony thought that he was in charge of the illuminati, at some points. remember Cap taking it upon himself to use one of the gems?

There's a whole thread right now on this very board on what an a-hole and terrible leader Stark is.
http://community.comicbookresources....g-a-super-hero

So no ... gender has nothing to do with this judgement. People simply respond negatively to it.

[Michael Watkins]

There's a whole thread right now on this very board on what an a-hole and terrible leader Stark is.
http://community.comicbookresources....g-a-super-hero

So no ... gender has nothing to do with this judgement. People simply respond negatively to it.

that's a little naïve. neither one of us is a mind reader. and Carol wouldn't be the first female or female character to be attacked for being "bossy."

[neohuey89]

that's a little naïve. neither one of us is a mind reader. and Carol wouldn't be the first female or female character to be attacked for being "bossy."

at first I found it to be really annoying since from my perspective, people like T'Challa and Monica shouldn't be simply taking orders from Carol given their background, but looking back it seems to be build up for when her teammates turned their back on her. I can't say that I follow her book, but I think she's a cool character. I think after Civil War I'll check out her title.

[JudicatorPrime]

she does in her solo series. her issues now are related to being second-guessed and backstabbed by her supposed colleagues; who have toyed with the fate of the world in the past.

Ahh, gotcha. Guessed I missed that, since I didn't read her solo. Maybe we'll see more of that side of her in U2.

[GrandEleven]

that's a little naïve. neither one of us is a mind reader. and Carol wouldn't be the first female or female character to be attacked for being "bossy."

Are you implying men or male characters are never attacked for being "bossy"? Cause that sounds rather naïve ...

it has nothing to do with being a mind reader, and instead having to do with the scenario being presented. Gender is a completely unnecessary part of this equation. People have been bitching at Carol's authoritarian persona sense CW2 yet you're jumping right to sexism. Maybe ... just maybe ... it has nothing to do with sexism and instead has to do with the spotlight she's been under for that last 6 months?

[edit] replacing Marvel with Carol to make it a bit more clear who I was referring to

[JKtheMac]

I haven't read the Captain Marvel issues. You're right, there may be more detail there that I've missed. Still, for continuity's sake, you'd think Ewing would have made any audience-pertinent info available in Ultimates. A simple notation and/or asterisk would have helped with the broader perspective.

Later this weekend I plan to go back and re-read Ultimates 1-11. (By the way, for those of you who haven't picked up issue #12 yet, it's out now. Go get it.) I have to figure out where Ewing went wrong. This series had so much promise, but ultimately left me disappointed. A good series should leave you with a dog-eared, spine-broken, well-weathered set of comics simply from having read them over and over and over again. Unless something sparks on the second read, it's safe to say that if these were paper and not digital, there'd be no danger of them being anything less than NM condition.

Yes there is something lacking so far, I feel the CWII stuff wasn't too disruptive however on one level it slowed the pace at just the wrong moment. The story isn't really finished yet though. We have had some developments to further the Galactus plot. The real issue is the protagonists. The main issues of the team are not being addressed, things are not moving forward. The background and the premise are good but we need more momentum.

As to handling of CWII generally it feels like the collaboration was a bit lacking. Not every writer seemed to be on the same page with the meaning of the central issues.

[JKtheMac]

You don't think that Carol could "lean in" using a different approach and come off as more judicial and circumspect? Because I absolutely think that she can. I followed her since her first series back in the 70's. This Carol is not that Carol. I understand that leadership and resentment/enmity go hand in hand. But my point was that no one asked Carol to be the leader, she exploited the co-op structure to promote her own agenda. That's the flaw in her approach here. Anyone that does that, no matter how the story is written, is being anything but a good, effective leader.

I don't object to Carol following her personal vision of what a great leader is. That approach would be highly effective in other team environments. Just not the Ultimates.

Actually, again in her series you do get the impression she is not only being asked to lead this, she is pressured into it, partly by being the right person for it, but partly because the alternatives could be worse.

[Michael Watkins]

Are you implying men or male characters are never attacked for being "bossy"? Cause that sounds rather naïve ...

I think there are things a male shot-caller could get away with that Carol cannot; despite her rank and resume. ordering people around is part of Carol's job.

[JKtheMac]

As to gender and Carol. It is always going to be challenging for a sector of the audience more familiar with male role models when a female is in the role of authority. Especially hard and authoritarian power. Much of genre fiction has unconsciously trained us to see the dictatorial female character as an evil stereotype. Think Narnia, and other Ice Queens; malevolent Witches like the one in Hansel & Gretal; think fairy tale step-mothers; Servalan (for fellow Brits of a certain age); the list is endless. Carol is not portrayed as a mother or benevolent aunt in CWII, so our story instincts get muddled. Recognising this and tackling these unconscious issues is an important thing to do.