Duke Thomas: We Are Robin, Signal Appreciation 2018

[lemonpeace]

Ah. I thought it was you.

This much, I can say I am in agreement with. (Surprised someone actual had the nerve to ask that at this point in time.)

Though Duke/The Signal is totally a Ninja when he wants to be, just not that type of Ninja.

My question to you guys, given Hill's tweet, how would you guys feel about Duke going more toward Snyder's intial idea of becoming a hero independent of the "Bat"? Do you think that's where Hill could be steering him?

I personally would be onboard with that idea because (i think I mentioned this before) i think at this point his relationship and proximity to Batman has been a hindrance to his growth. He's been in Batman's shadow long enough, at this point it's evident in that space no one wants to touch him because DC needs to keep the focus on Batman. That's not to say he should have no relationship with Batman (at this point pretty much no one in the DC universe doesn't touch the Bat nowadays) but I think if Hill uses Outsiders as a vehicle to have Duke create more distance from Batman and positions him to have more relationships and connections to the greater DCU (and take some of those damn bats off his suit) he'd be better for it.

[leo619]

My question to you guys, given Hill's tweet, how would you guys feel about Duke going more toward Snyder's intial idea of becoming a hero independent of the "Bat"? Do you think that's where Hill could be steering him?

I personally would be onboard with that idea because (i think I mentioned this before) i think at this point his relationship and proximity to Batman has been a hindrance to his growth. He's been in Batman's shadow long enough, at this point it's evident in that space no one wants to touch him because DC needs to keep the focus on Batman. That's not to say he should have no relationship with Batman (at this point pretty much no one in the DC universe doesn't touch the Bat nowadays) but I think if Hill uses Outsiders as a vehicle to have Duke create more distance from Batman and positions him to have more relationships and connections to the greater DCU (and take some of those damn bats off his suit) he'd be better for it.

Definitely not really feeling it, because then it goes back to the bat family almost entirely being the white only club. That was partially one of the reason the signal/duke was created. Duke had what, 4 robins before signal came in? It's the same issue that they tried to plant seeds with in Miles Morales, not realizing one of the key aspect for Miles Morales is the fact that he's Spider man in the spider man family. The fact that Miles is getting a movie before any other black marvel character besides black panther speaks to the power of legacy. Taking Duke outside of the bat family just makes him another original character created. Even worse, it makes it looks bad because the only black character in the "supposed" bat family is barely affiliated with batman to begin with, which gives the impression "he's part of us, but not really part of us."

[J. D. Guy]

Warning. Long post incoming.

My question to you guys, given Hill's tweet, how would you guys feel about Duke going more toward Snyder's intial idea of becoming a hero independent of the "Bat"? Do you think that's where Hill could be steering him?

I personally would be onboard with that idea because (i think I mentioned this before) i think at this point his relationship and proximity to Batman has been a hindrance to his growth. He's been in Batman's shadow long enough, at this point it's evident in that space no one wants to touch him because DC needs to keep the focus on Batman. That's not to say he should have no relationship with Batman (at this point pretty much no one in the DC universe doesn't touch the Bat nowadays) but I think if Hill uses Outsiders as a vehicle to have Duke create more distance from Batman and positions him to have more relationships and connections to the greater DCU (and take some of those damn bats off his suit) he'd be better for it.

For me, that depends on how one defines "independent of the Bat". I'd also say that'd depend on whether we ascribe to Duke intended to being fully "independent" of Batman from the get-go or whether that plan changed throughout his run based on ongoing plans and circumstances and how he felt about things. I get the feeling he was aiming for Duke to be a straightforward Robin from the onset, but couldn't for one reason or another. I have no proof of this, mind, but it is the feeling I got looking back. However, I feel that the vocal hated Duke got may have negatively effected Synder, and/or maybe the people over him, which led to a change of plans for direction and/or focus. At some point, he probably did decide that Duke would be his "own Yellow Warrior". But it would be after being immortalized as Robin.

He did become Robin. albeit an "alternative" Robin that your usual fan doesn't even bother to acknowledge. Despite that, he did good at this point, and we got out first tastes of who and what Duke is outside Bruce direct sphere of influence. Then events transpired, Rebirth happened. and Synder was off the book. He was off the entire line outside All-Star and the upcoming Bat-focused Metal. The Robin movement that Duke was a part of dissolved with the story that spawned it (missed opportunity to engrave it in the Gotham mythos like they did with the Court of Owls in my opinion). However, Synder left Duke on the path forward and upward. He left him directly under Bruce, and the Batman Rebirth issue showed things were looking up. He was with Bruce Wayne, living in the manor under Bruce and Alfred's watchful eye.

But Tom King was not Scott Synder. From his actions, he showed that even though he was left in charge of Duke's legacy, King did not care enough for the character to cultivate it in a proper manner, established by tradition, appropriate and befitting for one of the wards of Wayne Manor. It was up to Synder, who was already off the main line and who was ready to move on to bigger, wider areas of the DC world, to make concrete the path of Duke Thomas. This is why I get the feeling his plans for Duke changed. Things did not go as planned, on multiple fronts, and so Synder has to do what he could for his progeny as he could. This is when the All-Star back-ups, and later the Metal preludes, came in. Tony Patrick also comes in at this stage, and he was a beacon of light in Duke's uncertain future. Tony Patrick would get a 6-issue mini, that got truncated to 3 when the artist's schedule began to become more a hindrance than a help, to take what King didn't bother to and actually carve a path for Duke, under his new alias The Signal.

So with that in mind, I'm not 100% sure about the notion that Synder always wanted or intended for Duke to "be his own hero independent of the Bat". Which is to say I do believe he wanted and intended for Duke to be his own character, just as all the other "main" Robins are their own characters, include Dick/Nightwing, Jason/Red Hood, Tim/Red Robin (even if he is back in limbo, no one denies that he is his own character while still being a part of the Batman Family and "under" the Bat that brought him to life), and of course the little firebrand Damian/Robin (who's DC You and Rebirth forays showed nothing if not that he's his own character outside of Batman). They're all their own characters and most are always doing something on their own being their own characters, but they're also still under the Bat, being their when he needs them and being apart of larger events, and that's more than fine. And this is because being part of the Batman Family is part of the charge and energy and allure and legacy of these characters.

I don't agree with "hero independent of the Bat" because this is often used as codespeak for wanting him to disappear. Synder, I believe, wanted Duke to be just as much his own person as the others, and he even may have used independent to mark the idea of longevity and the ability to be in the DC Universe even after Synder stopped writing him. But I really do not believe he said that as to say "Duke "becomes his own hero away from Batman" and we never hear from him again."


As for what Hill is trying to do? I'm not sure what Hill is trying to do, even with his tweets posted here. If he is ostensibly trying to make The Signal an independent character from Batman, well, so was Tony Patrick. Just because The Signal was still part of Gotham and still in connection with Bruce/Batman did not mean he wasn't being independent of Batman as well. In fact, that was the whole point of making him daytime-Gotham's protector and emissary; Gotham by daylight was still Duke's home, but it was also a different world. It was a place were he could be in his own world without leaving the power and majesty of Batman so soon out of the gate. I'm not really sure what Bryan Hill is going to do with Duke on the Outsiders team that Tony wasn't already doing and gearing up to do with Duke in Batman and The Signal and the implied sequel ongoing series. (Still waiting on that ongoing, by the way.) For Bryan Hill, it is once again "wait and see".


Distancing Duke/The Signal from Bruce/Batman the way you would want it (as if he functionally was never part of him and the family in the first place) is not the way to go. Actually embracing and making use of Duke as a hero of Gotham, no matter where in the DC Universe he happens to be and not be a flake about it, is. Duke isn't brand new, but he's still new enough that having him break-off from Batman and Gotham, and worse still ditch the iconic paraphernalia that is the Bat insignia, would only be a detriment for Duke now. (His time under Bruce's direct tutelage was rushed; in fact, it was barely touched on from the perspective of relative-ness.) In the notion of Duke "becoming independent" it would cause him to be without a recognizable background identity. It would scrub away part of the power and majesty that comes with being a Gothamite with ties with Batman, especially direct and personal ties.

Yes, I would love for The Signal to become ingratiated into the wider DC Universe. Once again, some of the seeds to that were already being planted in Tony Patrick's mini. Seeds that would blossom where they given the due time to germinate. But he can and should be allowed to be apart of the wider DC while still having the brilliant white Bat on his chest. He can and should be his own independent hero without being cast into the ocean with naught by a tiny raft and no life jacket to speak of. The Bat and the insignia and Gotham are a part of the character's legacy. It would be a disservice to the character (not to mention tantamount to a waved white flag for his abject haters) to cast out his legacy. That kind of "distancing", which would be more like orphaning, is not needed.

[J. D. Guy]

Definitely not really feeling it, because then it goes back to the bat family almost entirely being the white only club. That was partially one of the reason the signal/duke was created. Duke had what, 4 robins before signal came in? It's the same issue that they tried to plant seeds with in Miles Morales, not realizing one of the key aspect for Miles Morales is the fact that he's Spider man in the spider man family. The fact that Miles is getting a movie before any other black marvel character besides black panther speaks to the power of legacy. Taking Duke outside of the bat family just makes him another original character created. Even worse, it makes it looks bad because the only black character in the "supposed" bat family is barely affiliated with batman to begin with, which gives the impression "he's part of us, but not really part of us."

This post is something I am entirely in agreement with. It sums up much of the latter portion of my post and brings it to words I did not but that I felt and that I mean.

As this post says plain as day, Duke is to DC what Miles is to Marvel. Duke is to Batman as Miles is to Spider-Man. Being Spider-Man -- the powers and the wickedly slick and cool nuances they bring as a webslinging, naturally acrobatic and athletic being of unadulterated awesomeness, along with the costume and the mythos and the legacy, and all the weight and majesty thereof -- is so very much part of the point. It many respects, it is the point. Being a Black and Latino, an Afro-Puerto Rican American Spider-Man? That matters. That is the point. That's the nuance. Not just being cool or being ethnically diverse, but being cool and ethnically diverse and a character as iconic and (for lack of a more better term that is more accurate but just as poignant to the point being made) is perfect. It is perfection itself.

Duke holds this same "responsibility" for DC. Being an inner-city African American youth (the youth is as important as everything else), with all the nuance and possibility that being such a person brings, who is part of Batman's world and who has an intricate and personal relationship to Gotham's star hero. Being the Robin for those who would love to see themselves as Robin without having to be made to see themselves as one of the white boys. That is what the potential that is Duke Thomas represents. Even as The Signal, as his own hero under his own name, as a new kind of hero, he still holds that torch. That torch of being the Black Bat-Hero youth in the Batman world, even as he makes his way through the wider DC world, just as Miles is the Spider-Man youth in the Spider-Man world, even as he is making his way through the wider Marvel world.

The only difference is that Miles was given the chance to flourish without restraint or whim or worry. Without the specter of indecision hovering over his head like a phantom ready to take his soul. Without the shrill cries of the dissenters (and believe me, there were dissenters alright). Without the distraction and divergence of pleasing the unpleasable.

Duke is to DC and Batman as Miles is to Marvel and Spider-Man. But did not get that chance. He was worth of it that chance. He still is worth that chance. He held the potential. And he still does. But he did not get this chance. And we're still waiting. That's the difference.

With that in mind, distancing Duke as you would want would, once again, be nothing more than a disservice to his character. Not to mention his fans on the whole, both current and potential.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

He should have a stable connection with the Bat-corner of the DCU while still being able to foster stories and connection outside of the traditional Bat connections (you know like him replacing dick and hanging out with TT, having his own friendship with a kid flash etc).

He needs to be more than just another bat-member going through the motions. Thats why i wanted him to join the unexpected, it offers more chance for him to stand out, grow, do his own thing etc than just being a Titan or Outsider.

Granted im not against him as a Titan or outsider depending on the roster.

[DragonPiece]

I think our best hope is Duke getting enough spotlight in outsiders for a writer besides Snyder or King to get interested so he can keep getting tries. Because i worry once they are both done with the batman books, that Duke will just become irrelevant.

I guess there is also hope the editors like duke

[J. D. Guy]

Wow. I just noticed that they "2018"-ed the title, but still left Lark and still didn't add The Signal.

I'm going to go on ahead and PM one of the boards Mods and asking them to do that.

[lemonpeace]

Anyone know how Duke's trade did?

[Aahz]

Anyone know how Duke's trade did?

According to Bleeding Cool it was only #33 among the Graphic Novels in August 2018.

[DragonPiece]

According to Bleeding Cool it was only #33 among the Graphic Novels in August 2018.

do you suppose that is bad?

[Aahz]

do you suppose that is bad?

Don't know, it is at least not a massive success (for something with Batman, Snyder and Metal on the cover probaly quite low).

Btw. the Numbers on Comichron are now also out. According to them 1,830 were ordered.

For Comparison Batman Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II was at #16 and had 2,528 ordered.

But honestly I have no idea how represtative these numbers are, since Graphic Novels have probably a higher percentage of their sales in regular book stores than Floppies have.

[J. D. Guy]

Thanks, @Frontier, for the thread name fix, at long last.

On how well the Trade did, it's hard to say. The single issues seemed to do well inspite of the expectation, and Synder even tweeted as such.

@skyvolt2000 is usually good at finding the Amazon #numbers and placing. Whenever he comes around, we could ask him to check.

(Does CBR Forums allow you to tag/notify certain users?)

[skyvolt2000]

@skyvolt2000 is usually good at finding the Amazon #numbers and placing. Whenever he comes around, we could ask him to check.

Currently on Amazon that trade ranks

222 for DC Super Hero trades
771 for overall Super Hero trades.

I did so some looking around at other books that came out between May 2018-August 2018 to see where Duke ranked.

do you suppose that is bad?

It depends on what your goal is for Duke.

If you wanted him to beat Miles Morales, Ms Marvel & Squirrel Girl. Based on Amazon numbers for their last trades and his-Duke loses BADLY.
If you wanted him to beat Moon Girl or Kate Bishop-he won.

If you wanted to see how he holds up against the likes of Priest's Justice League run, Flash, Hal Jordan, Green Arrow, Aquaman, WW, Teen Titans, Orlando's JLA, Supergirl & Cyborg. He PASSES. He beat all of their recent trades. He SOUNDLY beat Supergirl & Cyborg.

He is still DC's black top selling black hero with a book of his own.

For what little that has been done with him-you got a success. I think if you had him do more than panel cameos in Batman (looking at YOU Tom King) and be the book I thought it was going to be (like Bruce & Tim in the 90s where you saw them together). The numbers would have been higher.

I would say try another mini series. Because Dc needs SOMEONE to counter not so much Miles Morales but Patriot. Since he is in the Marvel rising film and got toys coming. Meaning we will see him and Falcon together again. So why not counter with Batman & Duke?

[Raijin]

No disrespect to Tom King. But it's very weird when someone would rather develop Kite-Man than The Signal. With Duke, there are so many things you can play with. Orlando did well with that.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

He had 50+ issues. He could have done both and a few other characters better.

Or just have Snyder do a solo and cover your base.

Oh well i guess we'll just have to see how does in the outsiders.