Duke Thomas: We Are Robin, Signal Appreciation 2018

[J. D. Guy]

We're talking about the same event which ignored Damian & Babs, for which Drake was taken out of the equation and in which Steph and Cass were wallpaper. Kate,Duke,Gotham Girl and Dick were the ones heavily involved in that story. 3 of these characters are only recent additions to the family, Duke and Gotham Girl in particular dont even have a place in the status quo but they still got prominent panel time. If anything Damian and Babs fans should be complaining.

And now you're missing the point.

[JasonTodd428]

We're talking about the same event which ignored Damian & Babs, for which Drake was taken out of the equation and in which Steph and Cass were wallpaper. Kate,Duke,Gotham Girl and Dick were the ones heavily involved in that story. 3 of these characters are only recent additions to the family, Duke and Gotham Girl in particular dont even have a place in the status quo but they still got prominent panel time. If anything Damian and Babs fans should be complaining.

First off Kate's not all that recent a character anymore, even if her book during the N52 was kept a bit separate from the rest of the Bat books, so I don't really have a problem with her being involved with that event. She been working with the family off and on for years of real time so it makes sense and its been good to see her being involved with the family again on top of that. Secondly, how else are Duke and Gotham Girl supposed to get exposure if not through panel time, particularly in events like this one? All the other characters you mentioned got where they are today because of panel time so why shouldn't they be given the same opportunity that even Dick got back in the 1940s?

[darkseidpwns]

First off Kate's not all that recent a character anymore, even if her book during the N52 was kept a bit separate from the rest of the Bat books, so I don't really have a problem with her being involved with that event. She been working with the family off and on for years of real time so it makes sense and its been good to see her being involved with the family again on top of that. Secondly, how else are Duke and Gotham Girl supposed to get exposure if not through panel time, particularly in events like this one? All the other characters you mentioned got where they are today because of panel time so why shouldn't they be given the same opportunity that even Dick got back in the 1940s?

I never said anything about whether they should or should not get more panel time. That poster said Duke was ignored in events even though he starred prominently in both the last 2 crossover

[JasonTodd428]

I never said anything about whether they should or should not get more panel time. That poster said Duke was ignored in events even though he starred prominently in both the last 2 crossover

Ah. Sorry my mistake then.

[J. D. Guy]

I never said anything about whether they should or should not get more panel time. That poster said Duke was ignored in events even though he starred prominently in both the last 2 crossover

You keep using prominently for Monster Men, when in Duke's case, that's not true. He was in it, yes, but so were others who had more of a role.

Beyond that, my point still stands, particularly with regards to the main Batman book.

[darkseidpwns]

You keep using prominently for Monster Men, when in Duke's case, that's not true. He was in it, yes, but so were others who had more of a role.

Beyond that, my point still stands, particularly with regards to the main Batman book.

He was prominent, he had an actual arc (saving Gotham Girl), more of presence over Cass and Steph and was actually included unlike Damian, Babs, Tim, Jason. The only characters who had higher billing were Batman, Batwoman and Nightwing. Unless you want Duke to get top billing even over Batman and Dick in a Batman book?and Batwoman was being pushed for a solo book launch.

Your point doesn't stand at all, it took 16 issues for Damian, Jason and Dick to show up in Batman. Duke has been around since the first issue. You've got All Star Batman, that's the Duke book, Batman isn't about Duke.

[skyvolt2000]

He was prominent, he had an actual arc (saving Gotham Girl), more of presence over Cass and Steph and was actually included unlike Damian, Babs, Tim, Jason. The only characters who had higher billing were Batman, Batwoman and Nightwing. Unless you want Duke to get top billing even over Batman and Dick in a Batman book?and Batwoman was being pushed for a solo book launch.

Your point doesn't stand at all, it took 16 issues for Damian, Jason and Dick to show up in Batman. Duke has been around since the first issue. You've got All Star Batman, that's the Duke book, Batman isn't about Duke.

How is 8 pages of a backup-Duke's book?

How many pages did Duke show up in Batman? At one point all his panel time could be tossed into 1-3 books.

Excluding Tim, Cass & Stephanie-Dick, Damian, Babs & Jason all have their own books. In fact they account for 7 books.

Last time I checked that is more exposure than Duke.

The "we hate Duke" faction keeps using He's in 2 top selling books and that's not fair to the others. Others who account for more solos, team book roles, minis and guest spots than Duke. They will forever have an advantage with so many other books. Duke is restricted to Batman & All Star.

The John Stewart treatment-where he is stuck in one book and that one book defines him. I doubt fans of Tim and the others would be happy if that happened to them. Being in the Batman main book does not guarantee success. It helps but until someone takes an interest with Duke and do projected outside of Batman like it was done with everybody else. Duke is stuck with a limited role in Batman.

[darkseidpwns]

How is 8 pages of a backup-Duke's book?

How many pages did Duke show up in Batman? At one point all his panel time could be tossed into 1-3 books.

Excluding Tim, Cass & Stephanie-Dick, Damian, Babs & Jason all have their own books. In fact they account for 7 books.

Last time I checked that is more exposure than Duke.

The "we hate Duke" faction keeps using He's in 2 top selling books and that's not fair to the others. Others who account for more solos, team book roles, minis and guest spots than Duke. They will forever have an advantage with so many other books. Duke is restricted to Batman & All Star.

The John Stewart treatment-where he is stuck in one book and that one book defines him. I doubt fans of Tim and the others would be happy if that happened to them. Being in the Batman main book does not guarantee success. It helps but until someone takes an interest with Duke and do projected outside of Batman like it was done with everybody else. Duke is stuck with a limited role in Batman.

Because it's written by his creator? the said creator wants to use the book to develop him and make him something.
How many pages of Batman has Damian appeared in? or Dick? or Babs? or well anyone?
They have books because there is demand for them and because they have a niche. Until Snyder finally makes Duke something DC's hands are tied. What exactly are they supposed to push? a book titled "the Black guy in Gotham"?
Duke appears in Batman books Batman, BATMAN, written by Scott Snyder and Tom King.

Yeah he's restricted to Batman and All Star Batman, what a punishment. He should clearly lead Titans, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, JL and JLA while starring in 2 different solo books titled" Batman is trying to make me something" and "All Star Batman is trying to make me something". Until Snyder actually makes this character something nobody is gonna be able to do anything with him, that's fact.

Duke has no place even in Batman mythology yet after years of tagging along. Till he gets one there is nothing any one can do, unless you want DC to piss off Snyder and do something with Duke against his wishes. This entire problem comes down to Snyder, that's the truth.

[dietrich]

[dietrich]

How is 8 pages of a backup-Duke's book?

How many pages did Duke show up in Batman? At one point all his panel time could be tossed into 1-3 books.

Excluding Tim, Cass & Stephanie-Dick, Damian, Babs & Jason all have their own books. In fact they account for 7 books.

Last time I checked that is more exposure than Duke.

The "we hate Duke" faction keeps using He's in 2 top selling books and that's not fair to the others. Others who account for more solos, team book roles, minis and guest spots than Duke. They will forever have an advantage with so many other books. Duke is restricted to Batman & All Star.

The John Stewart treatment-where he is stuck in one book and that one book defines him. I doubt fans of Tim and the others would be happy if that happened to them. Being in the Batman main book does not guarantee success. It helps but until someone takes an interest with Duke and do projected outside of Batman like it was done with everybody else. Duke is stuck with a limited role in Batman.

You really can't compare the readership for Any of the books Dick, Damian, Jason or any member of the family currently appears in to ASB and the main batbook.
Clearly Duke is getting more exposure than anyone one else in the family. That is FACT.

The fact that he is restricted to those is down to his creator who hasn't come out and said what / who Duke is. Writers can't use a character like that and we don't know if there are restrictions on using him. Synder's got secrets plans that he's not letting anyone in on.

[thefiresky]

You really can't compare the readership for Any of the books Dick, Damian, Jason or any member of the family currently appears in to ASB and the main batbook.
Clearly Duke is getting more exposure than anyone one else in the family. That is FACT.

The fact that he is restricted to those is down to his creator who hasn't come out and said what / who Duke is. Writers can't use a character like that and we don't know if there are restrictions on using him. Synder's got secrets plans that he's not letting anyone in on.

He's not getting more exposure overall though.

[J. D. Guy]

How is 8 pages of a backup-Duke's book?

How many pages did Duke show up in Batman? At one point all his panel time could be tossed into 1-3 books.

Excluding Tim, Cass & Stephanie-Dick, Damian, Babs & Jason all have their own books. In fact they account for 7 books.

Last time I checked that is more exposure than Duke.

The "we hate Duke" faction keeps using He's in 2 top selling books and that's not fair to the others. Others who account for more solos, team book roles, minis and guest spots than Duke. They will forever have an advantage with so many other books. Duke is restricted to Batman & All Star.

The John Stewart treatment-where he is stuck in one book and that one book defines him. I doubt fans of Tim and the others would be happy if that happened to them. Being in the Batman main book does not guarantee success. It helps but until someone takes an interest with Duke and do projected outside of Batman like it was done with everybody else. Duke is stuck with a limited role in Batman.

You're correct in that the specific context of Duke's roles in the books he's in are being ignored in favored of him merely being in those two books and other characters not. Worse still, we, or at least I mysef, weren't even speaking on anyone else. This is a Duke Thomas Appreciation thread after all.

You really can't compare the readership for Any of the books Dick, Damian, Jason or any member of the family currently appears in to ASB and the main batbook.
Clearly Duke is getting more exposure than anyone one else in the family. That is FACT.

The fact that he is restricted to those is down to his creator who hasn't come out and said what / who Duke is. Writers can't use a character like that and we don't know if there are restrictions on using him. Synder's got secrets plans that he's not letting anyone in on.

Saying Duke is the most exposed Batman family character, other than Batman himself, simply because of the two books he's in is so very much untrue. This is because saying this does not account for the context of his role within the book, nor does it account for the roles other Batfamily characters have in the books they are in.

I also feel somewhat that you are giving Tom King too much of a pass for not utilizing Duke as much as he could or should have in Batman (not counting how it's no use crying over spilled milk), as well as putting too much undue fault on Synder, considering he's the only one who's actively using.

Not to say I angry with Tom King myself, but I am frustrated a bit.

This is an example of what I spoke of earlier. It should be noted that he didn't do much more than what we see in this image during that point in the story (and Gotham Girl escapes later anyway, and needs to be calmed down by Batman when she does).

[Orujo-man]

Night of Monster Men was terrible (at least for me) and the supposed "overexposure" of Duke in Batman, well, he really didn't do anything apart of stay in the Batcave or in the manor. Pretty normal if you count that he's Bruce's new apprentice. Even Dick, Jason and Damian did more for the plot in the last issue with his "corpses".

So, I don't think that King wanted to overexposure him, he simply lives and trains with Bruce. The others were more occupied. Dick with the Owls and Blüdhaven, Jason dealing with his undercover mission, Artemis and Bizarro and Damian with the Teen Titans and his adventures with Jon, Maya and Goliath.

Honestly, I don't see the problem.

[dietrich]

Duke is getting more exposure cos more pairs of eyes are seeing him. What you could argue is that that exposure is being wasted cos he's not getting to do much and that is where i lay the fault on Synder's.

[irene]

The problem at the moment with Duke as a character, to put it bluntly, is that although he has been featured in two of the highest profile Batman books, his still lacks

1) Conflict
There is attempt at conflict with Duke concerning his jokerized parents and self-doubt as hero, but in order to work, these internal conflicts should be the main focus of Duke's story (as he is without external conflict), and they are not.

Bizarrely, also almost all external conflict, which would have been easier to express by multiple different writers, has been completely eliminated. For example Duke gets along perfectly fine with Bruce (?!?) without any issue, and Damian's reaction of having to share his father with a newcomer has not been addressed at all.

All this makes it very hard for others to write Duke, including King. Without conflict, you don't have a story.


2) Interactions
The reason Duke was at his best in Batman #16 and Robin War, was because he was interacting with other characters (and in conflict) with them. When he is with characters familiar to us, it is easier to contrast and compare him to others and have a sense of his personality and place in the Batman world.

Duke is suffering from Snyder's having no practice writing Batfamily as Duke cannot really establish his place within the family if he is not interacting with them.

Also many of the important character moments that would help us to have emotional ties with characters have been skipped or not even addressed.

- Duke figuring Bruce is Batman. (For example this could have served good insight on Duke's character, how smart he is and what were his thoughts, was he awed, was he disgusted, etc.)

- Bruce offering Duke a place as his partner. (We see the beginning but not the aftermath).

There was good attempt when Duke was the one telling Bruce he's Batman in Snyder's Batman, but it suffered from lack of emotional build-up between the two characters.


To summarize, in order to make Duke a likable character they have essentially sacrificed a part of what would make him an interesting character. That's a pity, because Duke has a lot of potential and he has shown a lot of promise.


*Note that I have not read We are Robin, and have based this on Robin War, Batman and the backups of All Star Batman .