Duke Thomas: We Are Robin, Signal Appreciation 2018

[Korath]

He isn't at the very end of the issue, staying in Gotham. But hopefully, Orlando will use him more if the need arise, I feel he is really fitting with Neon and Firebrand.

[leo619]

As someone who still doesn't have confidence in Bryan Hill's portrayal of Duke (and the podcast didn't instill much change at all. He essentially just said he needed some scaring to be "built" back up, and yet none of that was reflected in the arc.) this was the Duke I expected to see. If anything, I'd rather have him write Outsiders over Hill currently, as it feels that Orlando has a much better grasp on Duke than Hill does currently.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Or maybe just have duke join the unexpected ?

[lemonpeace]

As someone who still doesn't have confidence in Bryan Hill's portrayal of Duke (and the podcast didn't instill much change at all. He essentially just said he needed some scaring to be "built" back up, and yet none of that was reflected in the arc.) this was the Duke I expected to see. If anything, I'd rather have him write Outsiders over Hill currently, as it feels that Orlando has a much better grasp on Duke than Hill does currently.

In defense of Hill, i don't think Duke was supposed to build back up in that arc. Outsiders was clearly the plan from jump so I think Duke's growth was supposed to be shown in that; the Tec run seemed to be about establishing the roster more than anything else. The longer form story set up does fit with his storytelling style, whether he'll make good on it we'll see. I do appreciate what he's trying to do and I get why he needed to go that route based on his reasoning, i just would have preferred to see Duke used differently in the narrative considering how little we see Duke used.

[J. D. Guy]

He isn't at the very end of the issue, staying in Gotham. But hopefully, Orlando will use him more if the need arise, I feel he is really fitting with Neon and Firebrand.

Ah, I see. Not surprising. It was a chance outing that allowed The Signal to appear and have a role, so wishful thinking aside, that he leaves the story's lens by the end isn't surprising.

Like you say, hopefully Orlando makes use of him again soon. (I'm not surprised Orlando did right by Duke; his time on the Justice League of America was superb to me, and he made sure to develop and use and even progress each of the characters he was writing. The Ray, The Atom, and Killer Frost were stellar examples through the run, and he even made Lobo, a character who'd normally never really be my cup of tea, tolerable and even relateable. He made Lobo click! I know not everyone ended the run liking it as much as they hoped, but I loved the run and wish it never ended. So once more, I'm not surprised Orlando did right by Duke's character in the short time he used The Signal.)

As someone who still doesn't have confidence in Bryan Hill's portrayal of Duke (and the podcast didn't instill much change at all. He essentially just said he needed some scaring to be "built" back up, and yet none of that was reflected in the arc.) this was the Duke I expected to see. If anything, I'd rather have him write Outsiders over Hill currently, as it feels that Orlando has a much better grasp on Duke than Hill does currently.

From what I can garner, Orlando does seem more respectful and earnest in his use of The Signal/Duke, in spite of how brief it really was.

Bryan Hill remains to be seen.

Or maybe just have duke join the unexpected ?

Well, more guest appearances, at least. Still, do we know it's continuing for the foreseeable future? (Sucks about The Immortal Men, which was too grand for this poor world. )

In defense of Hill, i don't think Duke was supposed to build back up in that arc. Outsiders was clearly the plan from jump so I think Duke's growth was supposed to be shown in that; the Tec run seemed to be about establishing the roster more than anything else. The longer form story set up does fit with his storytelling style, whether he'll make good on it we'll see. I do appreciate what he's trying to do and I get why he needed to go that route based on his reasoning, i just would have preferred to see Duke used differently in the narrative considering how little we see Duke used.

While I can appreciate the thought process behind the perspective, I find myself more in agreement to leo619's caution.

Really, even if this was purposefully meant to lead into the Outsiders book, "affording" him the luxury of slow-rolling, Bryan Hill still could have did better by The Signal in the Detective Comics' opening salvo of his grand design. Like you say, we only get sporadic appearances by the character as it is, which is travesty enough, quite frankly. So the fact that he was low-key fridged (all but the actual death), worfed to prop up the arc villain while being made into a punk to do so, all the while he had no cover presence on any of the issues in the story (honestly, it feels nearly like false advertising that they said The Signal was even in this arc during the lead-in hype), all those things really does not inspire the best of wills. And also like you said, Bryan Hill could have set up Duke's character arc without putting him on a bus for the story he's supposed to have been set up in.

It's wait and see, but it's been that way throughout the Detective arc. Even more than that, it's been that way throughout most of Rebirth, outside brief oases from The Forge, The Casting, the All-Star back-ups, and The Signal 3-issue mini. Right now, this Detective arc of Bryan's has reminded me too much of the problem I had (and still have) with King's Rebirth Batman; I got led into the story thinking Duke would be an important and integral part of it (the Rebirth issue for King and the synopsis and related things for Hill), eagerly awaiting each issue only to be slowly disillusioned at how little Duke was used and how overall unimportant he ended up being when he finally was (this issue of The Unexpected shows that even having a guest spot that doesn't last long doesn't mean the spot has to be devoid of nuance and agency for the character holding it). I kept wondering "When's Duke gonna show up?" and "When's he going out with Batman on a mission?" and "When will we get those close mentor-protege and character moments between Duke and Bruce that defined their pre-Rebirth and Rebirth issue relationship?", only to keep getting largely nothing, until I didn't even get that. The impression was laid that King had no care to use Duke as a character in his epic tapestry of a Batman run (if that's changed please let me know), and so simply wrote around Duke until he could safely non-person him from making any appearances (when was the last time he showed up in King's run?).

For me, if Bryan Hill isn't following King's lead, he's gonna have to start showing what he's teasing with regards to making genuine use of The Signal as a character, and not just as a beat in the story he's telling. And so we're back to "wait and see".

[lemonpeace]

Ah, I see. Not surprising. It was a chance outing that allowed The Signal to appear and have a role, so wishful thinking aside, that he leaves the story's lens by the end isn't surprising.

Like you say, hopefully Orlando makes use of him again soon. (I'm not surprised Orlando did right by Duke; his time on the Justice League of America was superb to me, and he made sure to develop and use and even progress each of the characters he was writing. The Ray, The Atom, and Killer Frost were stellar examples through the run, and he even made Lobo, a character who'd normally never really be my cup of tea, tolerable and even relateable. He made Lobo click! I know not everyone ended the run liking it as much as they hoped, but I loved the run and wish it never ended. So once more, I'm not surprised Orlando did right by Duke's character in the short time he used The Signal.)



From what I can garner, Orlando does seem more respectful and earnest in his use of The Signal/Duke, in spite of how brief it really was.

Bryan Hill remains to be seen.



Well, more guest appearances, at least. Still, do we know it's continuing for the foreseeable future? (Sucks about The Immortal Men, which was too grand for this poor world. )



While I can appreciate the thought process behind the perspective, I find myself more in agreement to leo619's caution.

Really, even if this was purposefully meant to lead into the Outsiders book, "affording" him the luxury of slow-rolling, Bryan Hill still could have did better by The Signal in the Detective Comics' opening salvo of his grand design. Like you say, we only get sporadic appearances by the character as it is, which is travesty enough, quite frankly. So the fact that he was low-key fridged (all but the actual death), worfed to prop up the arc villain while being made into a punk to do so, all the while he had no cover presence on any of the issues in the story (honestly, it feels nearly like false advertising that they said The Signal was even in this arc during the lead-in hype), all those things really does not inspire the best of wills. And also like you said, Bryan Hill could have set up Duke's character arc without putting him on a bus for the story he's supposed to have been set up in.

It's wait and see, but it's been that way throughout the Detective arc. Even more than that, it's been that way throughout most of Rebirth, outside brief oases from The Forge, The Casting, the All-Star back-ups, and The Signal 3-issue mini. Right now, this Detective arc of Bryan's has reminded me too much of the problem I had (and still have) with King's Rebirth Batman; I got led into the story thinking Duke would be an important and integral part of it (the Rebirth issue for King and the synopsis and related things for Hill), eagerly awaiting each issue only to be slowly disillusioned at how little Duke was used and how overall unimportant he ended up being when he finally was (this issue of The Unexpected shows that even having a guest spot that doesn't last long doesn't mean the spot has to be devoid of nuance and agency for the character holding it). I kept wondering "When's Duke gonna show up?" and "When's he going out with Batman on a mission?" and "When will we get those close mentor-protege and character moments between Duke and Bruce that defined their pre-Rebirth and Rebirth issue relationship?", only to keep getting largely nothing, until I didn't even get that. The impression was laid that King had no care to use Duke as a character in his epic tapestry of a Batman run (if that's changed please let me know), and so simply wrote around Duke until he could safely non-person him from making any appearances (when was the last time he showed up in King's run?).

For me, if Bryan Hill isn't following King's lead, he's gonna have to start showing what he's teasing with regards to making genuine use of The Signal as a character, and not just as a beat in the story he's telling. And so we're back to "wait and see".

I can definitely empathize with your complaints about Detective, in retrospect i do think the solicits misled us far more than Hill. I've been following Hill since Michael Cray, so when i saw he was doing Detective with Duke i was following his Twitter extra closely and it was pretty clear the solicits were overstating the role of Duke (and Katana....and hell even Brainiac) in his story. I take more issue with that than Hill's use of Duke (even if do agree he could've gone a different route) because at least there's a method to the madness. Hill's reason and his more recent comments on Duke have given more faith in what he'll do next but if you guys aren't convinced you can always hit him up on Twitter. He's always open to feedback and correspondence from readers.



As for everything else, i'd say we're about on the same page

[leo619]

In defense of Hill, i don't think Duke was supposed to build back up in that arc. Outsiders was clearly the plan from jump so I think Duke's growth was supposed to be shown in that; the Tec run seemed to be about establishing the roster more than anything else. The longer form story set up does fit with his storytelling style, whether he'll make good on it we'll see. I do appreciate what he's trying to do and I get why he needed to go that route based on his reasoning, i just would have preferred to see Duke used differently in the narrative considering how little we see Duke used.

But as mentioned earlier, almost none of the characteristics that was based around this trauma was illustrated during the arc. There's a difference between wrapping up the trauma, and not showing any illustration of the trauma. The only thing it showed was him taking him out the fight. Even worse, it's horrible to have a character who main purpose for appearing was to check on the person with a trauma not have a single scene with the person he was concerned about to ask how he was doing.

So I stick by my word, it was essentially a fridging moment, and his statement via the podcast did nothing to change my mind. We will see how things appear in outsider, but for me personally, he's off to a horrible start.

[JasonTodd428]

I can definitely empathize with your complaints about Detective, in retrospect i do think the solicits misled us far more than Hill. I've been following Hill since Michael Cray, so when i saw he was doing Detective with Duke i was following his Twitter extra closely and it was pretty clear the solicits were overstating the role of Duke (and Katana....and hell even Brainiac) in his story. I take more issue with that than Hill's use of Duke (even if do agree he could've gone a different route) because at least there's a method to the madness. Hill's reason and his more recent comments on Duke have given more faith in what he'll do next but if you guys aren't convinced you can always hit him up on Twitter. He's always open to feedback and correspondence from readers.

I have to agree with you lemonpeace. The problem doesn't lay with Hill (even though I also think he could have gone a different route with Duke in his 'Tec run than what he chose to do but that's a separate issue) but with the solicits that overstated his as well as other characters roles in the story. (Duke was not the only one here who lacked screen time to be honest.) Now I have stopped actually reading the solicits for books I'm following (at least for the most part) because I find that they constantly and consistently overstate things and/or intentionally mislead those who read them. Remember these are really not supposed to be read by fans but by retailers so of course they are going to inflate things in order to make them eager to buy copies. If a fan reads them and comes to a certain conclusion about the story is it the fault of the title's writer or the one that wrote the solicit that they came to that conclusion? (and no I don't believe that the writers themselves are responsible for solicit copy so using that as an excuse doesn't fly with me.)

Anyway I'd second talking to Hill directly on Twitter if you'd like. He's wonderfully open and just a great guy all around. Probably one of the better presences on Twitter to be honest. Or better yet why not wait and see what he actually does with Duke (and the rest) once the Outsider's books starts in earnest. To me that will be the real test of his intent with Duke and of his ability to handle him. In my opinion there are lots of books that start off with a rough introduction only for them develop into the best danged book I've read in awhile. Maybe this will be one of those times. I'm hoping it is.

[skyvolt2000]

Really, even if this was purposefully meant to lead into the Outsiders book, "affording" him the luxury of slow-rolling, Bryan Hill still could have did better by The Signal in the Detective Comics' opening salvo of his grand design. Like you say, we only get sporadic appearances by the character as it is, which is travesty enough, quite frankly. So the fact that he was low-key fridged (all but the actual death), worfed to prop up the arc villain while being made into a punk to do so, all the while he had no cover presence on any of the issues in the story (honestly, it feels nearly like false advertising that they said The Signal was even in this arc during the lead-in hype), all those things really does not inspire the best of wills. And also like you said, Bryan Hill could have set up Duke's character arc without putting him on a bus for the story he's supposed to have been set up in.

It's wait and see, but it's been that way throughout the Detective arc. Even more than that, it's been that way throughout most of Rebirth, outside brief oases from The Forge, The Casting, the All-Star back-ups, and The Signal 3-issue mini. Right now, this Detective arc of Bryan's has reminded me too much of the problem I had (and still have) with King's Rebirth Batman; I got led into the story thinking Duke would be an important and integral part of it (the Rebirth issue for King and the synopsis and related things for Hill), eagerly awaiting each issue only to be slowly disillusioned at how little Duke was used and how overall unimportant he ended up being when he finally was (this issue of The Unexpected shows that even having a guest spot that doesn't last long doesn't mean the spot has to be devoid of nuance and agency for the character holding it). I kept wondering "When's Duke gonna show up?" and "When's he going out with Batman on a mission?" and "When will we get those close mentor-protege and character moments between Duke and Bruce that defined their pre-Rebirth and Rebirth issue relationship?", only to keep getting largely nothing, until I didn't even get that. The impression was laid that King had no care to use Duke as a character in his epic tapestry of a Batman run (if that's changed please let me know), and so simply wrote around Duke until he could safely non-person him from making any appearances (when was the last time he showed up in King's run?).

BINGO. I mean what did we see? Folks boycotting the book over Duke and even lists of books to boycott-Any book with Duke was the first one listed. Even after the fact we saw how little he was used-those calls of boycotts still did not go away. And we got catcalls of too many Bat family members and DUKE being the MAIN target.

I thought we were going to see Duke get built up with Batman like Tim was in the 90s. Not Johns Cyborg 2.0.
It gets to a point of if you WANT my money-do more than cameos and fridging work.

Think about it like this-we don't know WHO is reading what when it comes to characters.
Which book will get more readers? Detective or the Duke mini. This will turn more folks off than bring them in.

is it the fault of the title's writer or the one that wrote the solicit that they came to that conclusion?

If the writer is being sent around to hype the book-he has to share the blame.
The person who wrote it-gets the blame to.

Because that store owner is the one who is going to be stuck with unsold books because he got duped over what the preview said.

[JasonTodd428]

If the writer is being sent around to hype the book-he has to share the blame.
The person who wrote it-gets the blame to.

Depends on what the writer (in this case Hill) said when hyping the book just as it always does. It also depends on the fan. Some fans follow writers and comic news religiously and some don't. Some believe everything they hear or see without question, others are more skeptical about anything said.

Because that store owner is the one who is going to be stuck with unsold books because he got duped over what the preview said.

Honestly though that's on the store owner who finds themselves in that situation and not the writer of the book involved or entirely on the solicit writer for that matter. Store owners, if they're smart, should know enough not to base their buys entirely on what the solicits say. Most take into account other factors beyond that and are likely well aware that comic companies hype up everything.

[J. D. Guy]

I can definitely empathize with your complaints about Detective, in retrospect i do think the solicits misled us far more than Hill. I've been following Hill since Michael Cray, so when i saw he was doing Detective with Duke i was following his Twitter extra closely and it was pretty clear the solicits were overstating the role of Duke (and Katana....and hell even Brainiac) in his story. I take more issue with that than Hill's use of Duke (even if do agree he could've gone a different route) because at least there's a method to the madness. Hill's reason and his more recent comments on Duke have given more faith in what he'll do next but if you guys aren't convinced you can always hit him up on Twitter. He's always open to feedback and correspondence from readers.



As for everything else, i'd say we're about on the same page

I have to agree with you lemonpeace. The problem doesn't lay with Hill (even though I also think he could have gone a different route with Duke in his 'Tec run than what he chose to do but that's a separate issue) but with the solicits that overstated his as well as other characters roles in the story. (Duke was not the only one here who lacked screen time to be honest.) Now I have stopped actually reading the solicits for books I'm following (at least for the most part) because I find that they constantly and consistently overstate things and/or intentionally mislead those who read them. Remember these are really not supposed to be read by fans but by retailers so of course they are going to inflate things in order to make them eager to buy copies. If a fan reads them and comes to a certain conclusion about the story is it the fault of the title's writer or the one that wrote the solicit that they came to that conclusion? (and no I don't believe that the writers themselves are responsible for solicit copy so using that as an excuse doesn't fly with me.)

Anyway I'd second talking to Hill directly on Twitter if you'd like. He's wonderfully open and just a great guy all around. Probably one of the better presences on Twitter to be honest. Or better yet why not wait and see what he actually does with Duke (and the rest) once the Outsider's books starts in earnest. To me that will be the real test of his intent with Duke and of his ability to handle him. In my opinion there are lots of books that start off with a rough introduction only for them develop into the best danged book I've read in awhile. Maybe this will be one of those times. I'm hoping it is.

Well, even if we do separate the misleading solicits and pre-arc hype from the actually context of the issues themselves (which is difficult, as I tend to see them as part and parcel with the experience, particularly if you are going out of your way to read them like I was) that still leaves something to be desired with the context of The Signal's role in the story itself. Considering Duke's history with such contextual things, this does start setting off smoke detectors all on its own.

Of course, I am going to read and follow the Outsiders book. And I do hope this was just a wonky start.

By the way, since I do not have a twitter, would you guys mind posting some of these responses of Bryan Hill related to Duke and the upcoming Outsiders books here? (Or repost if you already did, or post some newer, recent ones?)

BINGO. I mean what did we see? Folks boycotting the book over Duke and even lists of books to boycott-Any book with Duke was the first one listed. Even after the fact we saw how little he was used-those calls of boycotts still did not go away. And we got catcalls of too many Bat family members and DUKE being the MAIN target.

I thought we were going to see Duke get built up with Batman like Tim was in the 90s. Not Johns Cyborg 2.0.
It gets to a point of if you WANT my money-do more than cameos and fridging work.

Think about it like this-we don't know WHO is reading what when it comes to characters.
Which book will get more readers? Detective or the Duke mini. This will turn more folks off than bring them in.

This level of disillusionment is my biggest issue with this whole matter, essentially repeating patterns from the very recent past when it comes to how Duke is often treated in the books he's in.

Also, I, too, was hoping for an apprentice period with Batman more akin to Tim Drake's. Sadly, All-Star Batman was the only book that really explored that, and then, only really in the 7-8 page back ups in the first 9-ish issues.

I also agree that the context of Detective Comics' relative popularity doesn't bode well for how The Signal was used prior to the story's spin-off into a new book.

[lemonpeace]

Well, even if we do separate the misleading solicits and pre-arc hype from the actually context of the issues themselves (which is difficult, as I tend to see them as part and parcel with the experience, particularly if you are going out of your way to read them like I was) that still leaves something to be desired with the context of The Signal's role in the story itself. Considering Duke's history with such contextual things, this does start setting off smoke detectors all on its own.

Of course, I am going to read and follow the Outsiders book. And I do hope this was just a wonky start.

By the way, since I do not have a twitter, would you guys mind posting some of these responses of Bryan Hill related to Duke and the upcoming Outsiders books here? (Or repost if you already did, or post some newer, recent ones?).

6b7f8c56-27ef-4663-a7ad-173d5de41fd2.jpg

7ebb12e0-b1d5-46d3-8e7b-c390d3cd523e.jpg

e81b7947-85ca-4898-9013-7b121aea4ecd.jpg

Here are a couple of the most recent tweets about Duke

[J. D. Guy]

6b7f8c56-27ef-4663-a7ad-173d5de41fd2.jpg

7ebb12e0-b1d5-46d3-8e7b-c390d3cd523e.jpg

e81b7947-85ca-4898-9013-7b121aea4ecd.jpg

Here are a couple of the most recent tweets about Duke

Thanks.

I think you posted these before, yes? I wonder if these are the newest Duke-related from him or are there newer.

Either way, can't do much but wait and see.

[lemonpeace]

Thanks.

I think you posted these before, yes? I wonder if these are the newest Duke-related from him or are there newer.

Either way, can't do much but wait and see.

I didn't post them before but someone posted a link to the inital tweet earlier. The only other newer tweet about Duke is this one when asked if we could see Duke's name change to something more in line with the Batfamily.

Screenshot_2018-09-09-12-15-29~01.jpg

[J. D. Guy]

I didn't post them before but someone posted a link to the inital tweet earlier. The only other newer tweet about Duke is this one when asked if we could see Duke's name change to something more in line with the Batfamily.

Screenshot_2018-09-09-12-15-29~01.jpg

Ah. I thought it was you.

This much, I can same I am in agreement with. (Surprised someone actual had the nerve to ask that at this point in time.)

Though Duke/The Signal is totally a Ninja when he wants to be, just not that type of Ninja.