The Rebirth Universe

[Stryder Wolfe]

Don't forget that Darkseid and Anti-Monitor fighting in "Darkseid War" also made some changes to reality...it's not necessarily all because of Dr. Manhatten..

Edit: oh and convergence too! Many reality-altering events in the last year...

[acnblj]

The knowledge you guys have on these timelines is amazing. It really is. What I'm doing is getting the stuff I like - Batman, Flash, Aquaman, HJ/GL, Titans starting with Rebirth. ALSO, I'm going back and getting trades of past stuff. Knightfall, Hush Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Court of Owls, Johns GL omnibus vol 1, Johns Wally West vols, and New 52 Aquaman, etc... and slowly reading as much as I can. While confusing, I'm loving the process and the stories.

[Waterfall]

Here's the thing: NO ONE KNOWS. Not writers, not editors, not even the characters in the universe. People here just have strong opinions on what's going on and that's it.
This is a reboot but in a sense that it's not sudden, they are looking at how fans are responding to changes and cleaning up according to that. This is why Jason Todd's origin is back again and that's why nuWally is a completely different person than the one they introduced. This is why Tim's gone. This is also why Wally is from pre-Flashpoint but doesn't mention his kids.

Once we reach the 2 year goal, we'll have a universe with a mix of both. New 52 is dead but post-crisis is certainly not coming back. Superman is the only reason why things are murky because Johns ditched the plans they had about post-convergence in the middle of DCYou.

In short, don't think too hard about it because it's a mess. That's the point of story. You have to find it out together with heroes.

[cranger]

After reading Rebirth, it's definitely clear that the restored memories that Wally is bringing back to people is from the pre-new52 universe. I don't see how anybody can't get that..

Because people may have read Titans Hunt or understood from Rebirth itself that he was only restoring memories of the current timeline that were missing because someone wiped everyone's memories of Wally and the Titans (from the current New 52 timeline) which caused him to be trapped in the Speed Force.

Barry, the first person he touches, only remember Wally from this timeline. Anything about a pre-New 52 timeline he is just taking Wally's word on, thought the fact that Barry has some recollection of Flashpoint makes him open to the idea that things did not get put back the right way. In fact, Barry could have had suspicions of that anyway.

Even reading the Titans book, the only memories being restored are New 52 memories, of events that they actually lived through but forgot, those events were not altered in any way, no one is remembering anything else that didn't actually happen.

In my opinion, the only reason I think this is confusing is because there is a segment of the community who has been claiming this is all about bringing back pre-New 52 continuity, undoing the New 52, when that has never been stated anywhere to be the case. I don't know if those people are just being wishful, or intentionally trying to mislead others, but having Rebirth acknowledge the pre-Flashpoint/New 52 continuity, and adding a twist to the events of Flashpoint, does not mean they are bringing back people's memories of another timeline.

[DCJdog]

Because people may have read Titans Hunt or understood from Rebirth itself that he was only restoring memories of the current timeline that were missing because someone wiped everyone's memories of Wally and the Titans (from the current New 52 timeline) which caused him to be trapped in the Speed Force.

Barry, the first person he touches, only remember Wally from this timeline. Anything about a pre-New 52 timeline he is just taking Wally's word on, thought the fact that Barry has some recollection of Flashpoint makes him open to the idea that things did not get put back the right way. In fact, Barry could have had suspicions of that anyway.

Even reading the Titans book, the only memories being restored are New 52 memories, of events that they actually lived through but forgot, those events were not altered in any way, no one is remembering anything else that didn't actually happen.

In my opinion, the only reason I think this is confusing is because there is a segment of the community who has been claiming this is all about bringing back pre-New 52 continuity, undoing the New 52, when that has never been stated anywhere to be the case. I don't know if those people are just being wishful, or intentionally trying to mislead others, but having Rebirth acknowledge the pre-Flashpoint/New 52 continuity, and adding a twist to the events of Flashpoint, does not mean they are bringing back people's memories of another timeline.

Dude, Rebirth clearly references that the changes happened when the Flashpoint event happened. The Flashpoint event happened at the end of the post-COIE universe. It's not another timeline. There is ONE timeline (as jack up and confusing as it is) in which Dr. Manhattan/whoever it is enters in from an "outside" place and jacks with things.

I personally could not care less about the new 52 or the new Rebirth universe. I don't have a dog in the fight. I thought about getting back into reading newer comics with Rebirth but was not persuaded to do so after reading some of the comics. I am not biased. I just don't see any other way to interpret what I read in Rebirth and other Rebirth comics.

[cranger]

Dude, Rebirth clearly references that the changes happened when the Flashpoint event happened. The Flashpoint event happened at the end of the post-COIE universe. It's not another timeline. There is ONE timeline (as jack up and confusing as it is) in which Dr. Manhattan/whoever it is enters in from an "outside" place and jacks with things.

I personally could not care less about the new 52 or the new Rebirth universe. I don't have a dog in the fight. I thought about getting back into reading newer comics with Rebirth but was not persuaded to do so after reading some of the comics. I am not biased. I just don't see any other way to interpret what I read in Rebirth and other Rebirth comics.

I agree with you about how this is all one universe/reality/whatever just undergone some changes. Timeline just means a way to list out chronological events. So, yes, since things happened differently there are different timelines with regards to the characters histories/memories.

Again, I agree with you about this being the same universe just messed with.

My disagreement is with what memories are being restored.

The key point is knowing the events of Titans Hunt. The Titans existed in the New 52 timeline. Someone wiped everyone's memories of them. They got most of those memories back except for Wally. Wally was trapped in the Speed Force, partly because no one remembered him. Touching people seems to restore their memories of him -- in this New 52 timeline.

[DCJdog]

I agree with you about how this is all one universe/reality/whatever just undergone some changes. Timeline just means a way to list out chronological events. So, yes, since things happened differently there are different timelines with regards to the characters histories/memories.

Again, I agree with you about this being the same universe just messed with.

My disagreement is with what memories are being restored.

The key point is knowing the events of Titans Hunt. The Titans existed in the New 52 timeline. Someone wiped everyone's memories of them. They got most of those memories back except for Wally. Wally was trapped in the Speed Force, partly because no one remembered him. Touching people seems to restore their memories of him -- in this New 52 timeline.

If that's so, then . . . why are the superheroes so young . . . but have all of these previous memories? I mean, isn't that the criticism people had of Batman when the new 52 started? Old Bats went through some Robins very quickly in five years. People had a hard time with the new 52 because no one knew the history of a character . . . even the writers it seemed.

I'll give the writers time to explain all of this. But man, I'm glad that it's not my job to sort through all this mess that the reboots and re-launches have made. All of these relaunches and reboots are supposed to give writers new playing grounds to write new stories. It seems that all they have been doing lately is giving new problems to fix.

[Stinky]

The knowledge you guys have on these timelines is amazing. It really is. What I'm doing is getting the stuff I like - Batman, Flash, Aquaman, HJ/GL, Titans starting with Rebirth. ALSO, I'm going back and getting trades of past stuff. Knightfall, Hush Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Court of Owls, Johns GL omnibus vol 1, Johns Wally West vols, and New 52 Aquaman, etc... and slowly reading as much as I can. While confusing, I'm loving the process and the stories.

I hear ya. While it hasn't been 30 years, it has been long enough to get thoroughly confused on some of the history. What happened? What didn't? Yeah, I won't be running out of catching up/reading material anytime soon

[cranger]

If that's so, then . . . why are the superheroes so young . . . but have all of these previous memories?

There are probably a few different questions being brought up here.

Why are the heroes so young? When New 52 launched? DC wanted younger heroes. Now? The answer now is Dr Manhattan.

Why do they have previous memories? When New 52 launched? Most didn't. Even Batman and Green Lantern only had it implied that things played out in a similar enough way that the books continued on without new origins. Now? The only memories coming back are those of the Titan's existence in the New 52. Even the memories Wally gained having been exposed to seeing events that happened before Flashpoint while trapped in the Speed Force are disappearing and have no effect on the current universe other than giving Wally some impetus to bring the DC characters into this new story.

[Heeroyuy_Batman]

My understanding is that a few different things happened with Flashpoint. The first being Pandora (working with or against Dr. Manhattan and perhaps Mr. Oz) merged New Earth's timeline with that of the Vertigo Universe and the Wildstorm Universe. (My guess is from the exchange in DC Universe: Rebirth #1 that whether she worked with them or not she was being manipulated by them to do what she did.) Had she not merged the three timelines/universes little would have been changed by the events of Flashpoint. The second is that on top of the timelines/universes being merged Dr. Manhattan stole ten years from the new universe making many more changes. The Multiversity and Convergence came along and revealed that because of the changes made to COIE at the end of Convergence that the events of Flashpoint ended up not only creating a new merged universe, but a new multiverse of 52 individual universes. However, this New 52 multiverse was established as being a part of a larger, infinite multiverse. My guess is that the endgame is to basically establish that pretty much everything from 1938 on happened not only within the multi-multiverse, but that the established continuity will be a grand sum of it all.

[colonyofcells]

Whatever post flashpoint changes that are not getting undone I will probably just blame everything on superboy prime.

[GlennSimpson]

There are probably a few different questions being brought up here.

Why are the heroes so young? When New 52 launched? DC wanted younger heroes. Now? The answer now is Dr Manhattan.

Why do they have previous memories? When New 52 launched? Most didn't. Even Batman and Green Lantern only had it implied that things played out in a similar enough way that the books continued on without new origins. Now? The only memories coming back are those of the Titan's existence in the New 52. Even the memories Wally gained having been exposed to seeing events that happened before Flashpoint while trapped in the Speed Force are disappearing and have no effect on the current universe other than giving Wally some impetus to bring the DC characters into this new story.

Exactly. To put it another way, Green Arrow and Black Canary aren't remembering having a past together. They are just now discovering one another and having a relationship similar to one they had in another "life".

[Ascended]

The knowledge you guys have on these timelines is amazing. It really is. What I'm doing is getting the stuff I like - Batman, Flash, Aquaman, HJ/GL, Titans starting with Rebirth. ALSO, I'm going back and getting trades of past stuff. Knightfall, Hush Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Court of Owls, Johns GL omnibus vol 1, Johns Wally West vols, and New 52 Aquaman, etc... and slowly reading as much as I can. While confusing, I'm loving the process and the stories.

Check out the Mark Waid Flash run (from the early 90's), it's largely considered the pinnacle of Wally West stories.

Anyway, I've been reading for over twenty years and I'm confused over the current continuity, so dont feel like you're left out.

I think right now we have too many questions without answers, and too many cosmic events that have screwed with time to really be able to say much with any real conviction.

Crisis on Infinite Earths didn't happen the same way it originally did in 1986. That alone changes everything that has happened since. If the multiverse didnt die, then the entire DC history post-Crisis is changed in such a drastic way I can't really even plot out what the changes could potentially be. One of the biggest, most obviously likely changes is that the JSA would have remained on their native world instead of ending up on the singular, post-Crisis "clutter earth." Yet we see Wally talking to Johnny Thunder about the JSA in the Rebirth Special, which means the JSA *should* be in the main continuity.....even though the changes to COIE means that the JSA likely never would have ended up there in the first place.

Someone stole a decade of time from the DCU, which is what we're currently blaming the New52 reboot on. And that of course had repercussions that went beyond that single decade, as events in the past and future have apparently been altered too.

And then there's a lot of "smaller" changes that have taken place within a single title. Zero Year plays out differently if its Batman five years into his career rather than his origin story. The entire Superman line is a huge mess right now with some big questions concerning the nature of the New52 Superman and his version of Lois. Wonder Woman's history has been altered by some unseen hand, which is exactly what happened with the 52 reboot and exactly what had happened in Odyssey right before that.

And how does this impact stories from the last five years? If the original Wolfman-era Titans existed, then Cyborg's origin didn't happen when the League first fought Darkseid. So how does that work? Was he just having some maintenance done when he was bonded to the Motherbox? That still changes his interactions with the League.

No matter what DC says, there are some huge, massive breaks in history and if they want to answer them, we're going to end up with a brand new history. That history might reflect post-Crisis history in many ways, but it's not going to be the same history. Nor will it be the New52 with a couple minor adjustments. It'll be something else; and right now Im guessing it'll be a fusion of all of DC's history. The majority of it will mirror post-Crisis but we'll still have some 52 stuff and perhaps even some pre-Crisis stuff mixed in.

This might still be the *same* world as the post-Crisis DCU, just with its timeline manipulated by various factors, but for all intents and purposes it's a completely different world. I mean, the JJ Abrams Star Trek is *technically* the same continuity as the original shows and movies, just with an altered history. But I dont think many Trek fans would accept that.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I agree with you about how this is all one universe/reality/whatever just undergone some changes. Timeline just means a way to list out chronological events. So, yes, since things happened differently there are different timelines with regards to the characters histories/memories.

Again, I agree with you about this being the same universe just messed with.

My disagreement is with what memories are being restored.

The key point is knowing the events of Titans Hunt. The Titans existed in the New 52 timeline. Someone wiped everyone's memories of them. They got most of those memories back except for Wally. Wally was trapped in the Speed Force, partly because no one remembered him. Touching people seems to restore their memories of him -- in this New 52 timeline.

Actually, that's not entirely correct. The other Titans remember only the "New 52 version" of events because they haven't been outside of the timeline and haven't seen how its been altered. Wally DOES remember because he has been outside of the timeline. For example, he remembers his time as Flash and taking on the mantle from Barry, he remembers his marriage to Linda Park, and he remembers his children, Jai and Iris. We see all of those memories in his own flashbacks, not just in DCU: Rebirth but also in Abnett's Titans series. So...how can he have those memories if this is a "separate New 52 Universe/timeline in which they never happened"?

Answer: its not a separate New 52 timeline. That's pure nonsense. Its the same timeline, but there are chunks MISSING from the timeline. Its easier to just think of it as though memories have simply been stolen but the events of those memories STILL HAPPENED...IN THIS TIMELINE. Think of it like how House of M was originally.

For those of you unfamiliar with X-Men or Marvel comics, House of M was when Scarlet Witch essentially rewrites the Marvel Universe and everyone forgot who they were. They eventually got their memories back, because those things still HAPPENED TO THEM, but they just initially couldn't remember because Wanda messed with their minds. The only one who could remember was Wolverine (as I remember because of his healing factor). The "House of M timeline" was later retconned as another earth, but it was ORIGINALLY just a construct created by Wanda Maximoff. That is essentially what the "New 52 timeline" is with Dr. Manhattan and Wally West and Superman are the equivalents of Wolverine in this story. They remember things as they are supposed to be.

The same way that House of M was simply a perversion of the Marvel Universe, New 52 is simply a perversion of the DC Universe. For example, Year One is still Batman's real origin, but he just remembers Zero Year as his origin, the same way Magneto remembered taking over the Marvel Universe as part of his backstory although it never really was part of his actual backstory.

[cranger]

Actually, that's not entirely correct. The other Titans remember only the "New 52 version" of events because they haven't been outside of the timeline and haven't seen how its been altered. Wally DOES remember because he has been outside of the timeline. For example, he remembers his time as Flash and taking on the mantle from Barry, he remembers his marriage to Linda Park, and he remembers his children, Jai and Iris. We see all of those memories in his own flashbacks, not just in DCU: Rebirth but also in Abnett's Titans series. So...how can he have those memories if this is a "separate New 52 Universe/timeline in which they never happened"?

You did not contradict anything I said, except fail to mention that those memories Wally has are fading.

Answer: its not a separate New 52 timeline. That's pure nonsense. Its the same timeline, but there are chunks MISSING from the timeline. Its easier to just think of it as though memories have simply been stolen but the events of those memories STILL HAPPENED...IN THIS TIMELINE. Think of it like how House of M was originally.

Actually, it is best not to think of it as anything than what it is: those years, events, were stolen. Not forgotten, but removed. Everything changed. Why pretend it is something else when all that does it confuse the issue?

For those of you unfamiliar with X-Men or Marvel comics, House of M was when Scarlet Witch essentially rewrites the Marvel Universe and everyone forgot who they were. They eventually got their memories back, because those things still HAPPENED TO THEM, but they just initially couldn't remember because Wanda messed with their minds. The only one who could remember was Wolverine (as I remember because of his healing factor). The "House of M timeline" was later retconned as another earth, but it was ORIGINALLY just a construct created by Wanda Maximoff. That is essentially what the "New 52 timeline" is with Dr. Manhattan and Wally West and Superman are the equivalents of Wolverine in this story. They remember things as they are supposed to be.

The same way that House of M was simply a perversion of the Marvel Universe, New 52 is simply a perversion of the DC Universe. For example, Year One is still Batman's real origin, but he just remembers Zero Year as his origin, the same way Magneto remembered taking over the Marvel Universe as part of his backstory although it never really was part of his actual backstory.

And? I mean, everything that happened in Flashpoint; past, present and future, all happened, but no one has any memories and none of it matters to now. Sure, everything that happened pre-FP still happened, but none of it matters now (except to Wally, and Clark and Lois, technically).

Things happen and then un-happen in comics all the time. Apparently DC has a history of reality changing events, they all happened and lasted, until something else happened. The New 52 is not un-happening, the DCU will only move forwards, not backwards.