The Rebirth Universe

[DCJdog]

Well, all this gobbledygook has killed it for me. The original COIE lasted for what . . . 25 years before change came? Then came Infinite Crisis which led to a wide open field for stories. But supposedly the DCU had become too complicated for new readers to jump into (i.e. sales were down and they needed something to grab headlines and boost sales).

In just a short time, it's been one Crisis event after another . . . Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Flashpoint, Convergence (which affected the first COIE!), and now Rebirth. I'm done.

What I would like to see is someone put together a chart of two different methods of change in the DCU that Rebirth that posters have laid out here. Some say that they are remembering from the post-Flashpoint universe (I disagree but I would like for someone to lay it out in a visual presentation) and others say that they are remembering post-Flashpoint memories (I agree with this but think that this proposal has problems too).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You did not contradict anything I said, except fail to mention that those memories Wally has are fading.

Actually, I did. You said that the memories Wally is bringing with him are of the New 52. That's clearly incorrect. The memories Wally is bringing are quite clearly from the Pre-Flashpoint Universe. His marriage, his kids, his tenure as Flash. None of that "happened" in the New 52, even with the memories that Wally brought "back" to his teammates. Also, those memories aren't fading. Wally clearly remembers that he WAS married to Linda, that he DID have kids, and that he WAS the Flash. We see it in his memories in DCU: Rebirth and in Titans.

Furthermore, its been established that even his Titans teammates now know that there is something beyond what Wally gave them back. Those "missing ten years" was referenced by Donna, even though she now remembers the "New 52" Titans. Wally even said to Barry, when Barry mentioned the "New 52" Titans that that wasn't "all." That "all" is the missing 10 years. Its the Pre-Flashpoint canon. The fact that people haven't caught onto that is ridiculous.

Actually, it is best not to think of it as anything than what it is: those years, events, were stolen. Not forgotten, but removed. Everything changed. Why pretend it is something else when all that does it confuse the issue?

Because that's conceptually the equivalent of what it is. To use the words of the Rebirth comic itself, those ten years were pulled out "like a Jenga piece." Question: when you play Jenga and you pull out the bricks, does the tower then automatically become a completely different tower? Are those blocks that are still part of the tower all of a sudden different blocks? No. They're not. Hence, this timeline is still the same timeline, but with some pieces missing. And yes, some things are different because of that missing piece, but that's the whole point of Rebirth: putting the missing piece BACK.

And? I mean, everything that happened in Flashpoint; past, present and future, all happened, but no one has any memories and none of it matters to now. Sure, everything that happened pre-FP still happened, but none of it matters now (except to Wally, and Clark and Lois, technically).

And? Again, that is the POINT of Rebirth. Its about putting that time and history back. You really think that DC is going to maintain a universe where their FLAGSHIP hero, Superman, remembers a different past from the people around him? Fat chance. Furthermore, uh...those three characters are not the only ones it matters to. You're painting this picture like DC has basically just said that nothing in Rebirth is going to be followed up on. However, several titles now have been dropping hints about this "Rebirth mystery," from Action Comics to 'Tec to Flash to Titans and even now Batman. They've even said that the JL vs. Suicide Squad comic is going to address it too. Mr. Oz has been popping up all over the DCU and its clear that DC is essentially making him out as the "new" Monitor. He clearly has knowledge of the Pre-FP DC Universe and an event with him playing a big part is going to likely be about reintegrating at least a majority of that history back, if not all of it.

Things happen and then un-happen in comics all the time. Apparently DC has a history of reality changing events, they all happened and lasted, until something else happened. The New 52 is not un-happening, the DCU will only move forwards, not backwards.

Enough with this "DC is only gonna move forward" bull. Its just a device used by people who don't want to admit that the New 52 FAILED to paint the people who want to see Pre-Flashpoint reintegrated as people who are living in the past.

You know what is pretty much one of the single most important elements of storytelling? Continuity and consistent character history. Character X doesn't pop up in Book 3 of a series if he was killed off in Book 1. At least not without an in-story explanation. That's just a simple basic premise of storytelling that has existed as long as storytelling has been around. If DC fails to maintain that, then guess what, DC is failing at telling a consistent story of its universe. And anyone who thinks that that's required from DC to maintain decades worth of canon must not be paying attention to the fact that Marvel has maintained its continuity since the 1960s.

[GlennSimpson]

Well, all this gobbledygook has killed it for me. The original COIE lasted for what . . . 25 years before change came? Then came Infinite Crisis which led to a wide open field for stories. But supposedly the DCU had become too complicated for new readers to jump into (i.e. sales were down and they needed something to grab headlines and boost sales).

In just a short time, it's been one Crisis event after another . . . Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Flashpoint, Convergence (which affected the first COIE!), and now Rebirth. I'm done.

What I would like to see is someone put together a chart of two different methods of change in the DCU that Rebirth that posters have laid out here. Some say that they are remembering from the post-Flashpoint universe (I disagree but I would like for someone to lay it out in a visual presentation) and others say that they are remembering post-Flashpoint memories (I agree with this but think that this proposal has problems too).

Well, I don't have the graphical skilz required, but as to the last bit - in the Rebirth one-shot, when Barry remembers Wally, we are shown what Barry is remembering, and it is Wally with the Titans, and Robin is wearing his New52 suit (as are Speedy et al). So that is where the indication comes from that the only thing people (other than Wally) are remembering is the lost Titans stuff, nothing to do with pre-Flashpoint.

[MajorHoy]

Anybody remember these?

After CoIE, DC put together a nicely illustrated timeline-type story giving readers an idea of where everything fit together in the new post-CoIE unified universe. It didn't tell us EVERYTHING, but just an idea of who was operating when and what the big, important events from the past were still influencing the new remade universe.

Then, after Zero Hour, DC developed a timeline that showed what was going on after the changes from that event and included it as a fold-out in the last issue for that series.



I miss those days where DC shared things with readers, instead of the current way where they can't even bother figuring things out for their own benefit so that all the writers and editors are on the same page.

[Ascended]

I miss those days where DC shared things with readers, instead of the current way where they can't even bother figuring things out for their own benefit so that all the writers and editors are on the same page.

The real killer here is that they could put it on their website, with a shout-out on the back page of each comic, and it would cost them nothing more than the pay rates for the people involved in making it and their IT guys to scan it and put it online. Going by average Big 2 pay rates and how much work would be required to knock out a rough timeline like the Zero Hour one, I'd think DC could do it for less than 500 bucks, and claim a solid increase in web traffic while they're at it. Hell, tie the timeline into some promotions (visit the timeline on the site, get a discount on trades), and they could likely make a profit on it for almost no effort.

[Sacred Knight]

Seriously. Hell, I'd take a plain text HTML document. Wouldn't even have to be illustrated. The only effort I'm asking is to actually construct said coherent history. The past is consistently thrown into chaos to serve the present. And while I'm all for concentrating on the present over the past, you don't have to make the past completely incomprehensible to do that. Maybe, MAYBE we'll get some sort of comprehensible timeline when Rebirth is settled. Probably for the best that I don't count on it though.

[MajorHoy]

. . . Maybe, MAYBE we'll get some sort of comprehensible timeline when Rebirth is settled. Probably for the best that I don't count on it though.

Actually, while I'm sure there will be plenty available on fan-generated wiki sites, I just don't think DC will bother to come up with an official one. It seems too hard for them to do these days.

(The whole mess with the "Were-there-or-weren't-there-any-previous-groups-of-Teen-Titans" fiasco towards the beginning of the New 52, with references to previous groups during the first two months worth of various issues before somebody finally saying "No, there weren't any previous 'Teen Titans' groups" was just so poorly handled. Then they had several tpb collections where they had to doctor the dialogue to remove those previously published mentions. Really reinforced DiDio's claims that everything had been thought out for the New 52 well in advance, didn't it?)

[DCJdog]

I've come to terms with the fact that the comic scene is not what it was . . . and never again be what it was. The whole fan service thing with editors, writers, and artists interacting with fans through columns, letters, and interviews is over with. The superhero books, shows, and other profitable items are making some major mullah. The corporate types have their hand in it all. I hate it but I seriously doubt any sort of coherent world or sense of community is coming back.

Dad Didio said that he knew DC had to do something when, at a convention, no one present wanted to ask questions. There was just an uncomfortable stare and silence. He finally got it that long time fans had checked out. Rebirth was a "response" to this . . . and falling sells as well (the cynic in me leans towards the latter as being the main force). I hope Rebirth does indeed make a lot of long time fans happy. But a lot of the key features that made me a DC fan are just not there anymore. I'll give Rebirth some time but I'm not holding my breath.

[BatmanJones]

I thought about getting back into reading newer comics with Rebirth but was not persuaded to do so after reading some of the comics. I am not biased. I just don't see any other way to interpret what I read in Rebirth and other Rebirth comics.

I wonder what you've tried. I think maybe if you read the right books, according to your taste, you might find something worthwhile.

It's not at all necessary to care about the Doctor Manhattan/Rebirth/two-year story that's part of some comics but not others in order to read some really nice runs. Some of them a big surprise to me. For example, I've never cared about Deathstroke but Priest is making me care about him so much it's my second favorite comic right now. I think each of the following is really worth a try. Maybe Young Animal would suit you. Much like classic Vertigo this is where DC's most imaginative creators tell the wildest stories under the sharp leadership of Gerard Way. Different styles but each worthwhile in its way:

Doom Patrol
Shade the Changing Girl
Cave Carson Has A Cybernetic Eye
Deathstroke
Detective Comics
Wonder Woman
Green Lanterns
Superman
Green Arrow
Titans
Batman
Hard-Travelin' Heroz: Six-Pack and Dogwelder

I'm also really looking forward to the new JLA by Orlando/Reis and whatever they finally decide to do with the classic JSA.

[DCJdog]

I've actually tried a bunch of them and just wasn't feeling it. I have liked All Star Batman. But then it got a little bit too sadistic for me. That Snyder guy can come up with some messed up stuff. It really turned me off and left a bad taste in my mouth.

I tried Deathstroke and it there was too much political stuff for me. If I wanted that I would read Marvel.

I've been reading some of the Robin volumes about Tim Drake by Chuck Dixon and I have surprised by how much I've enjoyed it. I think I'm just an old school comic guy. I'll probably just be reading everything up to Flashpoint. I hope everyone else finds something they like in Rebirth though. It's just not my cup of tea. The characters still seem off like they were in the new 52.

[MajorHoy]

. . . I hope everyone else finds something they like in Rebirth though. It's just not my cup of tea. The characters still seem off like they were in the new 52.

That's because right now it essentially still is the New 52 world, but with small concept additions from the previous, pre-Flashpoint runs being added at present.
What it will eventually wind up being in the end is still too soon to say (especially if Geoff Johns was involved in the planning).

[Atlanta96]

I've actually tried a bunch of them and just wasn't feeling it. I have liked All Star Batman. But then it got a little bit too sadistic for me. That Snyder guy can come up with some messed up stuff. It really turned me off and left a bad taste in my mouth.

I tried Deathstroke and it there was too much political stuff for me. If I wanted that I would read Marvel.

I've been reading some of the Robin volumes about Tim Drake by Chuck Dixon and I have surprised by how much I've enjoyed it. I think I'm just an old school comic guy. I'll probably just be reading everything up to Flashpoint. I hope everyone else finds something they like in Rebirth though. It's just not my cup of tea. The characters still seem off like they were in the new 52.

I think books like Superman, Trinity, and Titans do a good job having a Pre-Flashpoint feel. Yeah, they both have characters straight out of the Pre-Flashpoimt universe which helps explain it. But what they're doing with Superman really feels like natural progression for that character that would have felt just as appropriate in the old DCU. The other books just bring on a lot of nostalgia for the old stuff, and also have pretty good writing IMO.

[Buried Alien]

Anybody remember these?

After CoIE, DC put together a nicely illustrated timeline-type story giving readers an idea of where everything fit together in the new post-CoIE unified universe. It didn't tell us EVERYTHING, but just an idea of who was operating when and what the big, important events from the past were still influencing the new remade universe.

Then, after Zero Hour, DC developed a timeline that showed what was going on after the changes from that event and included it as a fold-out in the last issue for that series.



I miss those days where DC shared things with readers, instead of the current way where they can't even bother figuring things out for their own benefit so that all the writers and editors are on the same page.

Those were great, but one problem is that DC editorial/writers didn't have the discipline to stick with them for long and began contradicting them not long after they were first published.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[MajorHoy]

Those were great, but one problem is that DC editorial/writers didn't have the discipline to stick with them for long and began contradicting them not long after they were first published.

Still, it was better than the steaming pile of crap they've been trying to pass off as "planned out" since Flashpoint.

Don't get me wrong, some of the New 52 books have been good . . . it's just DC pretends that certain things happened in the past but can never agree on what exactly did happen in that nefarious five-year-window or didn't.

[Korath]

I don't see how The New 52 universe could be the same as Pre-Flashpoint in any way, shape of form, short of a hard reboot. There has been too many events very distinct to The New 52 (Batman's Zero Year, the founding of the Justice League, Trinity War and what surrounded it, just to name a few) which simply can't be reconciled with the Pre-Flashpoint. If DC tried to cherry pick parts of The New 52 to make a "soft" reboot work, it would make matters worse,, because it would be a mess and really insulting to people like me, who really like The New 52 and -at least in my case- would favour an honest reboot/multiverse crisis entirely separating Rebirth and The New 52- because it would basically amount to the firm trying to milk out every penny from both fans of the Pre-Flashpoint era and fans of The New 52 by taking both (but more so the latters) as to blind to see it. I sure hope DC isn't taking this road, but I'm not confident. The very fact that the next hyper-detailed goodies for Superman is his New 52 version is really something which rub me the wrong way...