Wonder Woman Vol 5 #9 Discussion

[Fenix]

New 52 Wonder Woman always seemed kind of cold to begin with though. The contrast between New 52 Diana and Rebirth Diana is quite apparent and they seem like different people IMO.

Anyways, think they made it a little too obvious that Diana and Steve are not on the real Paradise Island, or maybe it's just because they have different artists working on the project, or maybe it's all one big red herring and the Year One Paradise Island is the fake one...I can see why Diana is in a straight jacket later :P

[K. Jones]

The one thing that does bug me about Diana's free love screed is the implication that monogamy may not be a thing on Themyscira. I just want Philippus and Hippolyta to be married already.

This I see as the easiest work around. Because Hippolyta and Phil are elder stateswomen of the Amazons, which means that even though they're the ones who broke the chains of male Mediterranean hegemony or whatever, male-ocracy, they're also the ones who were the most steeped in and surrounded by it. Like, they resented it the most and are the ones who liberated the Amazons from patriarchal concepts and ideas, but at the same time, after growing up in those patriarchal societies, some of the old habits die hard and the world they create is for their younger sisters and their children to enjoy freedoms in, but they're kind of older and just want to marry one another.

But lest I get too complicated into theoretical regressive traditions and who might be invested in those concepts; I know loads of poly people who are presently or have been in extended monogamous relationships, because you love who you love and sometimes that partner wants to keep it simple. Phillipus and Hippolyta are military commanders, so keeping things simple and efficient might appeal to them. But moreover, another trait of polyeros people would be you know, pretty widely open marriages. Perhaps they are married with fidelity and monogamous and not interested in binding themselves to other women because they're each other's one and only special someone ... but that doesn't mean they don't swing.

Anyway, on Steve Trevor;

As a guy reading this book, a mostly heteronormative guy, who relates very well to Diana and Barbara and Etta and Sasha without any problem, it's still important to me to have a much more directly 1:1 character to relate to in Steve. Steve also serves an important function because it's important this book always gives us a stand-up example of a man who is a heroic, good person (contrast against all the patriarchal awful examples; this book requires a male Ally and Steve is historically the Wonder Woman "Good Guy Male" character.)

As a writer it's really important to me to incorporate holistic publication histories for comics characters and Steve is as important to Wonder Woman's lore as Lois Lane is to Superman's. So it's important for me to see him serve in his original capacity as love interest, but it's more important to see him serve in his original capacity as "best friend", because Diana needs a male best friend too, and it only just happens to happen that there is such a Venn diagram overlap between "lover" and "best friend" a lot of the time. More than that, jettisoning or radically altering the nature of Steve - which is precisely what happened post-Crisis, is kind of an affront to a guy who should be the core feature of a Wonder Woman book that provides a male positive role model to young girls reading, women, or boys and men who need a more familiar entry point. He's absolutely vital. A Wonder Woman book without Steve (and Etta) is like ... well, I was going to say a Batman book without Alfred and then I realized Batman has no healthy female relationships. Like a Superman book without Lois and Jimmy. Or like Sherlock without the Watsons.

Bonus to that: a lot of remedial work has been done to "fix" Steve, starting with Johns using him "okay" in Justice League, but particularly I was thinking of Larry Hama's very short 2-part stint during Convergence. Plus the pure nature of a modern soldier meeting a superheroic mythological warrior is just such a magical concept in the first place. Plus, jettisoning Steve has always been problematic because all the other male love interests that ever come into the picture are always "Pseudo-Steves". "Steve-Lites". Trevor Barnes and Nemesis are the two most obvious ones. It's like replacing Lois Lane with a woman named Lane Barnes (by the way she's ALSO a reporter!), or hooking Superman up with a tangentially related career woman who just happens to be C-List DC heroine who looks a lot like a younger Lois.

Anyway, still postulating and talking about this issue, which means, good damn comics.

[Scott Taylor]

Whoa, I don't remember any romantic moments like that between Steve and Diana ever. Not since ... I don't know, the Superfriends cartoon? Come to think of it, thats the last time I recall seeing the invisible jet, too. Hmm.

[SiegePerilous02]

This I see as the easiest work around. Because Hippolyta and Phil are elder stateswomen of the Amazons, which means that even though they're the ones who broke the chains of male Mediterranean hegemony or whatever, male-ocracy, they're also the ones who were the most steeped in and surrounded by it. Like, they resented it the most and are the ones who liberated the Amazons from patriarchal concepts and ideas, but at the same time, after growing up in those patriarchal societies, some of the old habits die hard and the world they create is for their younger sisters and their children to enjoy freedoms in, but they're kind of older and just want to marry one another.

But lest I get too complicated into theoretical regressive traditions and who might be invested in those concepts; I know loads of poly people who are presently or have been in extended monogamous relationships, because you love who you love and sometimes that partner wants to keep it simple. Phillipus and Hippolyta are military commanders, so keeping things simple and efficient might appeal to them. But moreover, another trait of polyeros people would be you know, pretty widely open marriages. Perhaps they are married with fidelity and monogamous and not interested in binding themselves to other women because they're each other's one and only special someone ... but that doesn't mean they don't swing.

Anyway, on Steve Trevor;

As a guy reading this book, a mostly heteronormative guy, who relates very well to Diana and Barbara and Etta and Sasha without any problem, it's still important to me to have a much more directly 1:1 character to relate to in Steve. Steve also serves an important function because it's important this book always gives us a stand-up example of a man who is a heroic, good person (contrast against all the patriarchal awful examples; this book requires a male Ally and Steve is historically the Wonder Woman "Good Guy Male" character.)

As a writer it's really important to me to incorporate holistic publication histories for comics characters and Steve is as important to Wonder Woman's lore as Lois Lane is to Superman's. So it's important for me to see him serve in his original capacity as love interest, but it's more important to see him serve in his original capacity as "best friend", because Diana needs a male best friend too, and it only just happens to happen that there is such a Venn diagram overlap between "lover" and "best friend" a lot of the time. More than that, jettisoning or radically altering the nature of Steve - which is precisely what happened post-Crisis, is kind of an affront to a guy who should be the core feature of a Wonder Woman book that provides a male positive role model to young girls reading, women, or boys and men who need a more familiar entry point. He's absolutely vital. A Wonder Woman book without Steve (and Etta) is like ... well, I was going to say a Batman book without Alfred and then I realized Batman has no healthy female relationships. Like a Superman book without Lois and Jimmy. Or like Sherlock without the Watsons.

Bonus to that: a lot of remedial work has been done to "fix" Steve, starting with Johns using him "okay" in Justice League, but particularly I was thinking of Larry Hama's very short 2-part stint during Convergence. Plus the pure nature of a modern soldier meeting a superheroic mythological warrior is just such a magical concept in the first place. Plus, jettisoning Steve has always been problematic because all the other male love interests that ever come into the picture are always "Pseudo-Steves". "Steve-Lites". Trevor Barnes and Nemesis are the two most obvious ones. It's like replacing Lois Lane with a woman named Lane Barnes (by the way she's ALSO a reporter!), or hooking Superman up with a tangentially related career woman who just happens to be C-List DC heroine who looks a lot like a younger Lois.

Anyway, still postulating and talking about this issue, which means, good damn comics.

Great post. The idea of Steve has always been important, even if the actual character work has been crap more often than not.

[gwangung]

Great post. The idea of Steve has always been important, even if the actual character work has been crap more often than not.

Yowzer. That's a big, important thought. There HAS to be a male member of the Wonder Woman cast; that's part of her core idea. And if there's one, it might as well be Steve.

Folks may disagree on how to implement his role, but he really should be there.

[ImprobableQuestion]

#11 will be a pretty good indicator of how mean spirited Rebirth as a whole will be.

As for Steve, I don't really care. Wonder Woman doesn't need a love interest. The thing I liked about her and Batman in the animated series was that it was 90% subtext. I have some issues with Steve being A) kinda boring and B) literally the first man she ever met, but it's whatever.

[Largo161]

Diana and Steve together again in the pages of Wonder Woman. And it only took, what, 30-odd years or so. A little corner of the universe is as it should be.

[NYCER]

My concern is the way it paints Diana.

If they want to explore Steve Diana...okay. Fine. New 52 Superman is dead. People gravitate to old exes. And Steve is an ex. Now the thing is the way it was articulated by this Diana. Given this Diana suddenly now many thousands of years old, queer, with many relationships under her belt...seems she could be a bit of a player...not sure one why she would even get with Superman and stay with him for the length of time she did. Her explanation is weak and not in character as Rakzo says.

No Amazon would stay with any man because it was easy and not complicated. Just makes no sense. Just does not sound like the Diana we know. I tend to prefer honesty in my Diana. It wasn't a one night stand, nor a fling she had with Superman. It was nearly 4 years of narrative and in the narrative she was in an exclusive relationship. It also had lots of challenges and ups and downs. Compared to what she's had with Steve in the last 30 years, which is nothing much...it had more to it. And she never left Superman, he died.

Rucka simply has no good way to explain why she remained in a relationship with Clark because it's too much for him to accept that Diana would stay because she could loved him. That could have made the character imo more sympathetic. Losing someone you love is a common experience. Plus it would have shown she was genuine in her love and not fooling the guy she was with. But nope. He has to sully it by unfortunately making her seem pretty shallow and stupid and making it seem as if it was not important to her. In trying to diminish the Superman relationship he throws Diana under the bus too. And for who? Steve? People can love and still move on and have other loving relationships. But can't have Diana loving anyone but Steve the first man she sees. eye roll.

And she leaves Steve and gets with Clark because of strength? WTH does that mean? That she is okay with Superman getting hurt because he is not human? What kind of woman is this Diana? For all his strength and flight...he is dead. So I have no clue why she even says this nonsense. She comes across very self absorbed for a woman should have a loving heart. Just sounds as if she gets in and out of relationships and really doesn't care why she gets into them and stays. And if she wanted booty...well why would queer Wonder Woman have to go after Superman? She could have slept with Cheetah if she wanted. Just makes little sense even if Rucka has his bias. Worse if she wanted to say the relationship was dull...as a poster claims...you stay in a dull relationship? What does that say about you?

And she has one conversation with Steve and is already sucking face. Easy? Yeah. I guess Steve will teach her love and romance since the sisters she slept with and Superman were chopped liver.

Agreed 100%. That's why to me the entire Diana and Steve exchange was clumsy and fell flat largely because Diana's actions make no sense under Rucka's pen.

And you raise a good point: because Rucka is the one making Diana queer in canon, it's all the more perplexing why Rucka would even put her romantically with a man since I'd think he'd want to tell a Wonder Woman story - besides Grant Morrison - where Diana's romantic partner is a woman.

To me Steve is just Rucka's default to repudiate the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as quickly as he can. And it's lame and uninspired.

[numberthirty]

Agreed 100%. That's why to me the entire Diana and Steve exchange was clumsy and fell flat largely because Diana's actions make no sense under Rucka's pen.

And you raise a good point: because Rucka is the one making Diana queer in canon, it's all the more perplexing why Rucka would even put her romantically with a man since I'd think he'd want to tell a Wonder Woman story - besides Grant Morrison - where Diana's romantic partner is a woman.

To me Steve is just Rucka's default to repudiate the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as quickly as he can. And it's lame and uninspired.

Doesn't this take sort of hinge on "Year One" actually being actual fact?

Seems like that much might be up in the air, and Diana's relationships with men could point to that.

[SiegePerilous02]

Agreed 100%. That's why to me the entire Diana and Steve exchange was clumsy and fell flat largely because Diana's actions make no sense under Rucka's pen.

And you raise a good point: because Rucka is the one making Diana queer in canon, it's all the more perplexing why Rucka would even put her romantically with a man since I'd think he'd want to tell a Wonder Woman story - besides Grant Morrison - where Diana's romantic partner is a woman.

To me Steve is just Rucka's default to repudiate the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as quickly as he can. And it's lame and uninspired.

Rucka isn't making Diana queer in canon. He (and DC as a whole) just confirmed what she already was.

Steve is not Rucka's default. DC as a whole is pushing the relationship. Johns already restored the character's youth and romantic history with Diana after Flashpoint. He's been appearing in the DTVs. Chris Pine is playing him in a major motion picture. This is a multimedia push, and it isn't being done to get rid of the Superman romance, because that's a non-factor all across the board at this point. Rucka's dislike for that particular pairing is pretty evident, but he's not writing Diana herself as having not gone through a grieving process, or having her say that she's glad her Clark is dead or anything. Compared to the way Soule wrote Steve as a slut shamming douche in the early issues of SM/WW, I'd say the Clark romance is getting off pretty light here.

[Black Angel]

All the fellow wonder woman fans hyped me up for this saying the Amazons are back then i say ok let me give rebirth another shot. I am so disappointed (the art was great though). She is back with steve oh i missed you, me and superman can fly so it made sense, it was uncomplicated (the other issues didn't make it seem that way). I know Rucka hates the SM/WW pairing but this was awful Jeez. Kinda sucks blonde Hippolyta may be fake. I like when i can tell her and diana apart i like the blonde one. Sigh. I guess it makes no sense i continue with rebirth WW.

[Sacred Knight]

Diana's history is probably going to get the wholesale wipe that Superman's is getting, just via differing means. In both cases for me its going down as some of the most blatant fanboy-inspired about-faces I've ever personally witnessed.

[brettc1]

I am going to kiss Steve now, Brett.

I am entirely okay with you doing that, Diana.

[Largo161]

Cylvia Anita Cyber is pretty bad, but it's comics. Edward Nigma is bad, Sinestro is bad, Victor von Doom is bad. I have a sneaking suspicion that Adrianna is the new Doctor Cyber, making her the flunky of Veronica Cale which would be incredibly unfortunate. What would also be unfortunate is that it would be just another case of Wonder Woman's cast not getting the same respect as other comic book characters (yeah, it's a minor quibble in changing her name if it is indeed her, but a quibble none the less).

You beat me to it by bringing up Victor von Doom. I mean seriously...Cylvia Cyber is no reason to disregard a character. Change the spelling, change the name altogether.

[brettc1]

Cylvia Anita Cyber is pretty bad, but it's comics. Edward Nigma is bad, Sinestro is bad, Victor von Doom is bad.

Victor Von Doom is classic. Awesome and classic!