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  1. #16
    Mighty Member WhipWhirlwind's Avatar
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    Outside of Tim who was taken off the board for a larger purpose (presumably), those other characters all have their place. The correction isn't forcing one writer to include everyone, but rather find writers who want to focus on those other characters and let them do that. See: Nightwing, 'Tec, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Black Mirror will go down as one of the best Dick Grayson stories ever, and not just because it's a good plot and all, but because Snyder writes Dick to masterfully with such nuance and insight.
    Yup, one of my favorite bat stories period. A great counter to the more light hearted team focused B&R too.
    Last edited by joybeans; 10-28-2016 at 11:07 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhipWhirlwind View Post
    Bad business would be interfering with one of your most profitable writers, potentially causing them to no longer write comics for you.

    Outside of Tim who was taken off the board for a larger purpose (presumably), those other characters all have their place. The correction isn't forcing one writer to include everyone, but rather find writers who want to focus on those other characters and let them do that. See: Nightwing, 'Tec, etc.



    Yup, one of my favorite bat stories period. A great counter to the more light hearted team focused B&R too.
    You don't be think locking 80% of Batmans allies out of the main books is bad business? Nightwing and 'Tec aren't nearly as popular as King or Snyders runs. Appearing in them isn't much of a push by Bat-book standards. We've already gone 5 years with little to no positive focus on the Bat-Family in the main series, Robin is supposed to be the most important of Batman's allies and he's barely even relevant anymore. King and Snyder could easily include them, but they don't.

    It'll be a while (if ever) until Duke is as popular as any of the Robins. Until then (again, if ever) they should try pushing the allies with real fanbases instead of relegating them to B-list series and bad crossovers.

  3. #18
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    You don't be think locking 80% of Batmans allies out of the main books is bad business? Nightwing and 'Tec aren't nearly as popular as King or Snyders runs. Appearing in them isn't much of a push by Bat-book standards. We've already gone 5 years with little to no positive focus on the Bat-Family in the main series, Robin is supposed to be the most important of Batman's allies and he's barely even relevant anymore. King and Snyder could easily include them, but they don't.

    It'll be a while (if ever) until Duke is as popular as any of the Robins. Until then (again, if ever) they should try pushing the allies with real fanbases instead of relegating them to B-list series and bad crossovers.
    Honestly I'd rather read about the Robins in their own titles rather than in the main books. In those books they are the main focus so they receive more detailed attention from the writers in their own books then they will ever get in one of the main books or a crossover, which are going to focus mainly on Batman himself. If writers don't want to use them there then that's their choice and frankly, as mishandled as the other Robins have been at times, I'd rather they stay far away from the main books and the crossovers. Forcing a writer to use characters he doesn't want to use never works out well for the characters involved.
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  4. #19
    Mighty Member WhipWhirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    You don't be think locking 80% of Batmans allies out of the main books is bad business? Nightwing and 'Tec aren't nearly as popular as King or Snyders runs. Appearing in them isn't much of a push by Bat-book standards. We've already gone 5 years with little to no positive focus on the Bat-Family in the main series, Robin is supposed to be the most important of Batman's allies and he's barely even relevant anymore. King and Snyder could easily include them, but they don't.

    It'll be a while (if ever) until Duke is as popular as any of the Robins. Until then (again, if ever) they should try pushing the allies with real fanbases instead of relegating them to B-list series and bad crossovers.
    Robin being Batman's most important ally isn't fact. While I do think he is, there are plenty of people who don't like Robin, or who would make the argument that Alfred and Gordon are more important. Nothing mandates that the main batman book has to include the bat family, and clearly Snyder's run was successful enough without them. King's batman book doesn't have the bat family either. While I'm not a fan of Duke, I don't really actively dislike him, and I get that having a novice involved allows them to play the Watson card for exposition in ways that you can't really do with more experienced characters like Dick and Tim.

    And you say they could "easily" include them, but I'm not sure thats true. In most cases when a writer is forced to include something, it rarely ends well. I'd rather have the family in books where people want to use them.

    Finally, 'TEC (the main batfamily book) and Nightwing are both selling quite well. In some cases more than some solo JL books and popular marvel books. I don't think they qualify as B list anymore.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhipWhirlwind View Post
    Robin being Batman's most important ally isn't fact. While I do think he is, there are plenty of people who don't like Robin, or who would make the argument that Alfred and Gordon are more important. Nothing mandates that the main batman book has to include the bat family, and clearly Snyder's run was successful enough without them. King's batman book doesn't have the bat family either. While I'm not a fan of Duke, I don't really actively dislike him, and I get that having a novice involved allows them to play the Watson card for exposition in ways that you can't really do with more experienced characters like Dick and Tim.

    And you say they could "easily" include them, but I'm not sure thats true. In most cases when a writer is forced to include something, it rarely ends well. I'd rather have the family in books where people want to use them.

    Finally, 'TEC (the main batfamily book) and Nightwing are both selling quite well. In some cases more than some solo JL books and popular marvel books. I don't think they qualify as B list anymore.
    I never said anyone should be forced to include those characters. But you've got to admit that the Bat-Books have been very neglectful of his supporting cast since the New 52. Whether or not Snyder and King like, hate, or don't care about those characters, they have been neglected. It would have been nice if them to try and back off from that mistake, but it doesn't appear to be happening. That's not good for the Bat-Family, is it really too much to ask for Robin or Nightwing to have at least some presence in either of the main books?

  6. #21
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    I never said anyone should be forced to include those characters. But you've got to admit that the Bat-Books have been very neglectful of his supporting cast since the New 52. Whether or not Snyder and King like, hate, or don't care about those characters, they have been neglected. It would have been nice if them to try and back off from that mistake, but it doesn't appear to be happening. That's not good for the Bat-Family, is it really too much to ask for Robin or Nightwing to have at least some presence in either of the main books?
    The thing is Robin hasn't been a presence in the main Bat title for a good long while now. The Batman and Robin title, which started before Snyder came onboard as the main Bat writer and was running before the reboot, became the book that focused on both characters working together was while Batman had his own adventures in the main book and 'Tec. I think what might help would be if they reinstated that title and focused on Batman working with the Robins (both current and former). That way there would be a book wherein Batman was working and interacting with Robin(s), which would make fans who want that interact happy, while those that want solo Batman adventures get those in the main books.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 10-28-2016 at 02:05 PM.
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  7. #22
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta96 View Post
    That's not good for the Bat-Family, is it really too much to ask for Robin or Nightwing to have at least some presence in either of the main books?
    Part of it is appealing to the "solo Batman" style fans, many fans are like that. But yes you can counter that for some arcs by saying: "Well, later these weren't solo Batman arcs and still no Robin or Nightwing."
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  8. #23
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    I rarely get offended on these boards but that line about the black teenager's death in relation to Damian is genuinely aggravating. Damian is the definition of comic logic he was a test tube baby raised by assassins that can beat up robin and red hood and he is only 13 so i believe it when snyder says he reminds him of his 13 year old son. That black kid was based off of Trayvon and Mike and so many other young black males, that character was Snyder using Batman comics to relate to fears that people like myself have in real life. That issue was important more so than Damian getting spotlighted by a writer who doesn't want to write him instead of the writers who do in titans , super sons and nightwing.

  9. #24
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    On a lighter note i look forward to what Snyder and Cappullo do with batman this summer as long as it meets up with the quality they set in their run.

  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    The thing is Robin hasn't been a presence in the main Bat title for a good long while now. The Batman and Robin title, which started before Snyder came onboard as the main Bat writer and was running before the reboot, became the book that focused on both characters working together was while Batman had his own adventures in the main book and 'Tec. I think what might help would be if they reinstated that title and focused on Batman working with the Robins (both current and former). That way there would be a book wherein Batman was working and interacting with Robin(s), which would make fans who want that interact happy, while those that want solo Batman adventures get those in the main books.
    I've been hoping for a new Batman and Robin book for a while now, though at this point it's more likely to be Batman and Lark until Duke stops feeling like a Robin and doing Robin things .

  11. #26
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    I would concur with Snyder in that I couldn't write a book filled with violence against children, either. "A Death in the Family" really upset me and I was one of the phone voters 'way back then to save Jason. But Damian is generally the one doing the violence to others, so Snyder's excuse really doesn't wash. I believe that Snyder's problem with Damian is simply that HE DIDN'T CREATE HIM. Grant Morrison (a REAL superstar writer) created Damian--WITH the intent to kill him off--and Damian proved too popular for even Morrison's plans to remain permanent. Snyder can't really vent his spleen on Dick, Jason, Tim, OR Damian because they all have legions of howling fans, so he just avoids them (note Dick and Bruce are squabbling yet AGAIN so Dick can be shuffled offstage; Jason is out in space/the tenth dimension/anywhere else but here with his fellow misfits; Tim is on semi-permanent kidnapped duty) unless there is some interest in carting them back onstage to get trashed so Duke and/or Harper can look wonderful and superior to them. Duke and "Fan-Favorite" Harper aren't exactly old geezers and Snyder has no problems using them in violent situations. Maybe he is loathe to admit that he CAN'T create characters as popular and enduring as Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. Now, I like Snyder's work just fine most of the time. But make no mistake--there are THOUSANDS of perfectly fine writers out there who WOULD be able to juggle this stuff and maybe the Old Boys Network should look outside the box sometime.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Not when all those other Batman books are available everywhere. Stop looking at Diamond as the end all of comics. Last time I checked Batman, Detective Comics and many of the other titles not named Azreal or Red Robin or the early Tim Drake runs are widely available if they are in trades. Including at the library.

    All those guys in Detective are getting equal showings-Duke Thomas is NOT hindering anyone's reading of the others.

    And at Dc fanbases seem to NOT matter of shall we recount the vanishing acts of Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Renee Montoya,Michael Lane & Oprehus? We won't discuss John Stewart with his fewer pages in Rebirth than Duke or Mr Kyle who has yet to show up.

    Maybe if they weren't sent packing you might not have Duke running around.
    You're right, which is why I wish those characters were never dropped in the first place. I like all of them more than you know who.

    And old trades not named The Killing Joke aren't read nearly as much as new releases, characters getting exposure is always important.

  13. #28
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    I just hope it doesn't hinder the storylines in other books, hopefully it's kept between ASB, Batman and Tec, maybe JL. Plz spare Nightwing from the Owls and I think Snyder should just continue doing what he is doing, yeah he should just ignore the family because lets be honest even if he odes include them people will complain. If he cant juggle or write these characters in ways people want then there is no point in asking for those characters, I'd rather they be ignored than go through DOTF or NOTO.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by etamogrey View Post
    Violence against children is a horror trope that many horror writers( like Snyder) use to establish the stakes and mood of their horror series which swamp thing under Snyder was. Making a political statement about young unarmed black men being shot by cops and being viewed as dangerous and unheard is realistic.
    Both these cases are different from writing a 12-13 year old kid fighting the joker and two face because Snyder child isn't a young black man, a vision of death corrupting innocence nor did Snyder have to write father son dynamics for those characters which he would if he wrote Damian in Batman which is probably the part that would hit home for him. And ,no offense, but i don't think you are in a position to call Snyder a liar for saying he doesn't want to do something.
    The only problem with that statement is that it's not specific to Damian, you can use this for any sidekick and Robin and guess what Duke is a sidekick/wannabe Robin. I respect Snyder's decision but I dont buy it. Statements like these only fuel the perception that he doesn't like Robin because Robin has always fallen with in the 8-12 age range. The purpose of the character has always been to attract fans in that age bracket. So on one hand he says that he cant write Robin then he also says that he wanted Duke to be Robin(which he was kind off), ergo a perception of favoritism and bias is automatically created.

  15. #30
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    Honestly, even tho i do think that Snyder like knows and understands Cassandra's character, and he also has wantted to use her earlier but he said the couldn't (DC Editorial didn't let him), i also do agree with others when they say that Snyder only focus on Batman when he's around and goes crazy with it and that could harm the bat-fam members involved, so i would prefer if Cass stayed out of this one.

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