Whose life is it anyway? : The Nuperman/Superdad conundrum

[manofsteel1979]

I want to preface what I'm about to say with all the cards on the table. I personally prefer the current incarnation of Superman compared to his New 52 counterpart. That's not to say one is superior to the other,and that's not to say I didn't like many aspects of the New 52, because I certainly did. However,i thought that the degree they rebooted the character to get to those changes took away more than was gained and while the core characterization of Superman WAS much improved from what the prior version devolved to in it's last few years,much of everything else ,in my opinion,because I'm only speaking for myself,was a giant step down. What was gained from the reboot ( a characterization closer to the PreCrisis version of Superman or at the very least a more assertive Superman) could have been accomplished with better writing and hiring writers that got the character,and didn't require a quarter of a century's worth of continuity and world building and stories completely being tossed out and replaced with....well... really not a whole lot.

However,i did not and still do not approve of how DC has handled all this. Doing a cut and paste job is convoluted as all get out and only served to further muddy the waters. It would have been more simple to just retcon in the alterations via the " missing" time to steer Nuperman towards a more classic take on Superman or to even bring about the return of the Marriage and Jon's existence. Not everyone would have liked it and some would still would have belly ached over certain ships going away or complained about the idea of Superman being a father ,but at the least we wouldn't have to go through the convolutions of,say,Lois Lane having to be killed off and having another Lois Lane take over and everyone being okay with it,as we saw in the recent ACTION.

Now having said all of that...

We were told in the REBIRTH special that the New 52 is indeed the preFlashpoint universe,just altered via meddling from a third party whose motives are yet revealed. Meaning the Batman of the New 52 is the same Batman as before,but with altered memories. Same with Flash,Wonder Woman,Green Lantern,etc.

Now,assuming Superdad is indeed his preFlashpoint self ,and he missed having his memories altered because of events outside of his control,ans assuming Nuperman was some sort of anomaly and replacement.... can the argument be made that technically speaking,isnt Superdad and by extension Lois just reclaiming their actual lives and Nuperman and his Lois inadvertently were actually the interlopers that " stole" Superdad and Lois' place in the world?

The very fact we are forced to consider this is telling but....well...we are already here. Truth be known, it's not as cut and dry as Perhaps it looks on the surface.a case could be made for either being the interloper who stole the other Superman's place.

So the question is..who is the real interloper? Nuperman or Superdad?

[adrikito]

A more assertive superman... That was my idea about N52 Superman... He has the necessary qualities to be Superman, he don´t need more...(boyscout).. The Pre-crisis version was the correct superman.. Then I see DC making fail the character..

DC reveals time ago his plans.. Putting N52 as part of the Post-Crisis World.. DC would have accelerate the rebirth... 2 years for end this...

INTRUDER? The N52 Versions(transformed in sand)... Since the begin of rebirth DC treat them like trash(Truth, Greg Rucka with WW, Jurgens..)... Lois White saying.. I would never reveal the identity of superman.. Thanks to Convergence.. The majority of Old fans want that and exist Jon..


SORRY.. These are questions with answer... These family is here forever, the rest doesn´t matter.. DC hate the relation of Superman with Wonderwoman(created by them).. they prefer make N52 versions as fake, inspired by the clone saga ..

[Superlad93]

I'm very much expecting a Pocket Universe Superboy sort of explanation.

For those who don't know, "this incarnation of Superboy was born into a singularly created universe who was developed by the Time Trapper as part of his scheme to control the Legion of Super-Heroes after the Earth-One Superboy was wiped from existence due to the effects of the Crisis on Infinite Earths and replaced with the current Superman who was never costumed Superboy. This change threatened to destroy the 30th century Legion of Super-Heroes' existence and all who populated it as it was the superhero efforts of the Earth-One Superboy who inspired the Legion in the first place, creating that reality" (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(Pocket_Universe))

The fact that Oz says he "trained" the New 52 Superman is very telling.




This sounds very much like New 52 Superman and Lois where in fact creations/stand ins made by Mr. Oz. I doubt Oz expected the original Superman and Lois to come back though.

[adrikito]

The fact that Oz says he "trained" the New 52 Superman is very telling.




This sounds very much like New 52 Superman and Lois where in fact creations/stand ins made by Mr. Oz. I doubt Oz expected the original Superman and Lois to come back though.

The first sign of danger this character.. I hope see his death during rebirth..

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm very much expecting a Pocket Universe Superboy sort of explanation.

For those who don't know, "this incarnation of Superboy was born into a singularly created universe who was developed by the Time Trapper as part of his scheme to control the Legion of Super-Heroes after the Earth-One Superboy was wiped from existence due to the effects of the Crisis on Infinite Earths and replaced with the current Superman who was never costumed Superboy. This change threatened to destroy the 30th century Legion of Super-Heroes' existence and all who populated it as it was the superhero efforts of the Earth-One Superboy who inspired the Legion in the first place, creating that reality" (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(Pocket_Universe))

The fact that Oz says he "trained" the New 52 Superman is very telling.




This sounds very much like New 52 Superman and Lois where in fact creations/stand ins made by Mr. Oz. I doubt Oz expected the original Superman and Lois to come back though.

I think you may be onto something there.

[Sacred Knight]

Right now? The interloper is pre-FP Superman and Lois. It will turn out that the New 52 versions were though. The old switcheroo. Half the card is already showing in the reveal that this is the same Earth already changed. The rest will be revealed later.

[bat39]

Neither. My guess is they're both the same character...with Nuperman being a 'time anomaly' or 'temporal duplicate' of sorts.

Here's how I picture it working.

Barry causes Flashpoint. He then fixes Flashpoint, more or less restoring the pre-52 timeline. However, in the process of the restoration, Doc Manhattan (with or without the involvement of Pandora) manipulates the DCU, stealing ten years from it...creating the New 52 timeline. When he does so, all the DCU heroes are affected. Pre-Flashpoint Superman is transformed into the New 52 Superman.

However, Convergence happens and Brainiacs starts abducting cities and their inhabitants from 'doomed timelines'. This includes the pre-52 timeline, just before Flashpoint hits (presumably). Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois are thus abducted from their timeline BEFORE they were about to be erased (or rather, transformed into their New 52 versions).

When the dust settles after Convergence, Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois end up, with their newborn son, in the New 52 timeline. They consider it to be a parallel earth and settle down there, living secretly for years, alongside the New 52 Superman and Lois (who, unknown to them, are the SAME people...temporal duplicates of themselves who were altered by Doc Manhattan).

Eventually, New 52 Superman and Lois die. Around the same time, Wally West returns from his exile in the Speed Force, with vague memories of the pre-Flashpoint timeline and an awareness that someone has manipulated time. Perhaps Wally's return has triggered an increasing 'awareness' of the previous timeline (though that has never been made explicit). In any case, Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois have now emerged from the shadows...at a time when its being revealed that the New 52 timeline is an altered version of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline, and things are slowly moving towards some kind of merger of the two.

So the truth is...they're BOTH Superman from two different timelines - one before the time-alteration and one after. The one after died, but the one before survives and time itself is slowly moving closer to how it was 'before' so he will soon be quiet at home.

To use another analogy for the situation (and not a very good one), consider the Back to the Future movies, specifically the second one

In BTTF2, we have the 'normal' timeline and the alternate 'Hell Valley' timeline.

Old Biff goes back from 2015 to 1955 and gives himself the Almanac, altering history drastically. He creates an alternate timeline that overwrites the original timeline. Everyone in the normal timeline - including Marty, Doc and Jennifer - are overwritten and replaced by their alternate selves. For the purpose of this example, we're focusing on Jennifer. So normal Jennifer in 1985 is rewritten and 'transformed' into alternate Jennifer (whom we don't actually see in the movie, admittedly).

But...Doc had already taken 'normal' Marty and Jennifer out of their natural timeline at the start of BTTF2. As such, they were immune to the change Old Biff made to the timeline, by virtue of being in the future. So they are able to return to 1985, except that its now the alternate version. And Normal Jennifer now co-exists with Alternate Jennifer. Alternate Jennifer is the same entity as Normal Jennifer...in a metaphysical sense, she was once Normal Jennifer until her timeline was altered. The Normal Jennifer who exists now is a temporal duplicate - an anomaly from an erased timeline who has survived in her 'original' state by virtue of being removed from her time by Doc.

But, Marty and Doc leave Normal Jennifer in 1985-A and then jump back to 1955 to fix the timeline. So, both Jennifer's co-exist in 1985-A. Let us assume for a moment that Alternate Jennifer, for whatever reason, ends up dying...and Normal Jennifer is now the only Jennifer left, in a position to possibly assume the identity of her deceased 'twin'. (In the actual movie of course, the Alternate Jennifer doesn't show up and Normal Jennifer is asleep throughout everything).

Except...Marty and Doc fix the timeline and undo the damage Biff did in 1955. So now, the Alternate Timeline morphs back into a new version of the Normal Timeline. Time transforms around Jennifer, and she now finds herself back in her own reality (or one close enough to it). The alternate timeline she was stuck in was basically a corrupted version of the normal timeline and now that its been repaired, she's back home.

The same applies to the two Supermen, IMO.

Just substitute Pre-52 Superman and Lois for Normal Jennifer; Post-52 Superman and Lois for Alternate Jennifer. Doc taking Normal Jennifer from 1985 to 2015 at the start of BTTF2 is analogous to Brainiac taking Pre-52 Superman and Lois to Telos (well, not really, but its functionally close enough for the analogy to work). Doc bringing Normal Jennifer to 1985-A and leaving her there, to exist alongside Alternate Jennifer, is analogous to Pre-52 Superman and Lois entering the New 52 timeline and co-existing with New 52 Superman and Lois. And finally, the Alternate Timeline being 'returned' to the Normal timeline, and Normal Jennifer finding herself back home is analogous to the Rebirth story, and how gradually the New 52 timeline is unraveling and will likely become some variation of the Pre-52 timeline in certain respects...which means Pre-52 Superman and Lois will soon find themselves 'home' in a sense.

[Korath]

For me, Nuperman and Nulois had different lives than Superdad and Malois (had it was portrayed for some mere seconds in a previous Action Comics). They don't have the same past, they don't have the same tastes, the same relations, the same history. I've no problem with the laters on their own, I could even have rolled with it rather easily, even with Nuperman and Nulois deaths because I really like the writing of the Superman and Superwoman titles which have been even superiors to the Batman comics (which is telling something, because I consider myself kind of a Batboy, my first cartoon ever seen, the first I truly remember that is, was Batman TAS and it left marks). But I can't condone nor appreciate the Rebirth characters stealing the other two lives, I find it abhorrent, a stain on those characters and a spit in the face of those who were erased to make them some room. Then again, I recognize that my tastes aren't that usual when it come to comics (I've found the whole Truth and Savage Dawn arcs to be, respectively, very good and average. In fact the only arc of the New 52 Superman lines I really dislike is H'el on Earth. And I loved the armoured costume far more than the current one or the "traditional". And I'm a SM/WW fan, if I'm completely honest).

Taken by themselves, Rebirth Superman, Rebirth Superwoman and New Super-Man are probably some of the best comics I've ever read, their characters are excellent, well developed and sympathetic, and they have nothing to be ashamed of in comparison with the New 52 books that I really love. But the Action Comics storyline which is unfolding is just terrible, because it imply that characters I loved and followed for five years were either not real, time-echoes, or inferior versions of the real characters who had gotten a rather tranquil life for themselves in the background.

Furthermore, the time-changing retcon of Rebirth opens a whole lot can of worms : if Rebirth Superman is simply Nuperman with more years behind his belt because he was not affected by the 10 Years which were stolen and that the Rebirth universe is more or less returning to the pre-FP's one, then it means that at some point in time Superdad has to be abducted with a Lois who has just given birth to Jon and then return to the affected post-FP timeline to experience the ten years he spent there, or he (his family, thus) will be a walking time-paradox, one who shouldn't exist any longer because he can't be present at that time, in that place, with those memories, without escaping the timeflow at one point of the other. Therefore, if Superdad is in fact Nuperman, that the choices are :

-totally throw out of the window any pretence of coherence (which DC will do, I'm not naive)
-trap Superman in a never ending timeloop, where his adventures stars in a pre-FP timeline, he gets abducted, then pass ten years in an altered timeline, becomes this timeline "True" Superman and then be abducted again, etc. ad infinitum
-makes Superman a living Paradox, never truly at home in his adopted timeline, with a sort of obligation to bring it out every-so often, which wouldn't work really well for the character's brand

All in all, the missing ten years are a terrible ideas which has been put to the service of an even worst : that a previous version of Superman would be "truer" than a new one by virtue of the writers and artists not really liking the more modern (and less Conservative) one.

[stephens2177]

Jeez they are BOTH superman,as much as post crisis is different than pre crisis superman.time changes,amd creates different paths,every path has their own Superman,easy as that.

[Dataweaver]

I personally like the “quantum twins” explanation (nutshell: they're both the real Superman due to a split timeline, one who got subjected to the Flashpoint and one who sidestepped it). But I suspect that the “Mr. Oz's substitutes” explanation (nutshell: Superdad is the real thing; Nuperman is a copy that Oz introduced as a stand-in because Superman went missing just before the Flashpoint) is the one that's going to be pushed in the end. And I think the new Clark from the recent Action Comics will end up being another “Mr. Oz's substitute”, introduced by Oz to bring into doubt nuLois' Truth revelation. After the “Clark is Superman” notion is publicly discredited, this newest Clark will either disappear or die, and Superdad will step into his role the same way that maLois has taken over for nuLois, fully restoring the status quo of Lois and Clark as reporters for the Daily Planet.

Of course, that still leaves Jon in an awkward place. Hmm… maybe, after Lois and Clark are both back with the Planet, they reveal to everyone that they eloped and are now married, then introduce Jon as their adopted son.

And maybe at some point (Action #1000?), Nuperman and nuLois show up as “energy ghosts” and infuse themselves into Superdad and maLois, giving the latter their memories and allowing them to continue their lives in the new continuity without the risk of running across something that they ought to know about but don't.

[SuperCrab]

Does anything else think this dragging on too long in the era of twice a month comics?

Really, these questions haven't even been just hanging in the air since the big extra-length DC Universe wide Rebirth comic on May 31, they've been hanging in the air since the first issue of Lois and Clark, to some degree. But just counting the Superman specific Rebirth issues and the 3 titles (Superman, Action Comics, Justice League), we've got 6 months x 3 titles x 2 issues a month=36 issues of mystery through November (I'm assuming if it was going to be wrapped up this month, we'd know). Maybe Justice League started a month late, now that I think about it, but sub in the general DC universe Rebirth that was like 80 pages as a double issue, and you hit 36 again.

However, like I said, those 36 issues are really just the continuation of a mystery that began in Lois and Clark, which is another 8 issues, for 44 issues. This was also part of the Death of Superman arc that took over 4 monthly comics for April and May, so 52 issues, where both Supermen who involved and this mystery was there. I don't know if we want to count the 4 New52 Superman titles before that point, but Mr. Oz first showed up in like, what, issue 40 or something of one of those titles? So, at that point, we'd be talking like 100 issues of Superman titles- assuming you don't count the new52 Justice League and New52 JLA (The latter is an awesome series, this is just talking relevancy, not how good the titles are or aren't), which would make it even more issues.

This mystery just isn't compelling enough to have seen it dragged out for 100 issues plus. Also, they've failed to really advance the ball a whole lot. Granted, the Superman line itself underwent a near-complete revamp that just barely technically avoided being a reboot in Rebirth, but that's not in and of itself advancing the ball on the central mystery. Rebirth just gave us a few clues- neither Superman is who he thinks he is, the missing 10 years, and that Mr. Oz had old-universe Doomsday in cage. Maybe I am forgetting old, but not a whole lot.

If they really push it to Action Comics 1000 or something, we should be up at like 400 issues at that point. What do they gain from dragging it out? I get that a few continuing mysteries and story threads hook readers and make them want to continue with titles they might otherwise get bored with for whatever reason, but I think readers can also get sick of being strung along, too, especially after things that are very central, like what universe this is set in and the nature and background of the main characters. It'd be easy for readers to just say "Forget it, the issue(s) that resolve it will be heavily promoted and I'll check back then if I still care at this point".

I mean, all of us have only so many years on this earth and only so many times we'll read a new Superman comic. Why not wrap this up and then have the last page or two be a hook to the next "great" mystery or whatever? I mean, it doesn't have to be like everything gets started and wrapped up in one issue or one story arc or whatever, but it's reasonable to sort of expect them to wrap up stuff by 100 issues later, and maybe even way before, isn't it?

Somewhere some fan is sitting there who's going to have a heart attack tomorrow and die or get run over a bus or something, and he's not going to get the answer to the end of the storyline. Not that that'll be his biggest problem, obviously. Not by a long shot. But they could have given that guy, and anyone still reading their comics at this point the end of that mystery and several more by now without rushing anything and "cheating" the audience with an overly condensed thing. We're way passed over condensed, through condensed, through the right length, and on to taking way, way, too long.

[Sacred Knight]

If it were to be over by the summer I'd say it went long enough, as that would be the close to the equivalent of old status shifting epics designed to be temporary, like Death/Return and Electric Superman, and how they were told over a year's time over around four monthly titles. A year's worth of 2 bi-weekly titles gives a similar output. But, if it doesn't end by then, if it hangs on the entirety of Rebirth, then yes, it will have gone on at least a year too long.

[SuperCrab]

Anyway, to answer the central question posed by the original poster:

It's new52 Superman's universe.

We have seen "first hand" in the new52 comics Clark come to Metropolis, become Superman, go from jeans and a t-shirt to Kryptonian armor that is a modern take on his classic look, etc.. We've seen his parents on Krypton in a time travel story, we've seen flashbacks where he was rocketed to earth and picked up by his adopted parents, growing up and burning down his parents' crops by mistake, his childhood romance with Lana, etc.. And, of course, he's the guy everyone from his childhood friends like Lana to his adult friends (Both in Metropolis and in the Justice League) like Jimmy Olson, Lois Lane, Bruce Wayne, etc. remember.

They obviously have the ability to retcon it however they want to. However, to me it'd be a cheat to say the new52 Superman was a construct. They may write the words and draw the pages, but that won't make it mesh and feel like a reasonable ending to me- and not just because I prefer new52 Superman to SuperDad- because it would involve contradicting everyone's experiences with him for his 30+ years (I mean, in terms of how long he was alive in the new52 backstory, from birth until he died in his 30s).

What makes sense is that these are Supermen from two different universes or two different timelines. They may not script it that way, but that's what works.

The only way the current DC Universe isn't the new52 Superman's native universe is if the current DC Universe has changed into a different universe because of changes to the timeline or whatever.

I suppose alternately, they could do some convoluted thing where the new52 Superman was swapped into a nursery days after his birth as a replacement for whatever Superman they've retroactively decide had been born there, but why?

[SuperCrab]

Also, just intrinsically, a "Who is this world's legitimate Superman?" story works better if each Superman is active in at least one current title. By killing off new52 Superman, it takes a lot of the dramatic tension out of it. With just one Superman left around, you know they're going to find some way to make that guy seem to be technically legit eventually. It's not like they are going to wait 100 or 200 issues and then go "Turns out, the dead guy was legit! SuperDad is the construct or interloper. Anyway, back to the adventures of SuperDad.".

I suppose it's always theoretically possible they could bring back new52 Superman and sub him right back in, but we all basically know, realistically, that isn't going to happen barring a complete sales collapse and new editors (Stuff that doesn't happen often). If he was coming back for more than some sort of brief guest appearance or story arc, he'd be a lot more "present" in the current stories, even though he's technically dead- and he'd probably have come back sooner.

Like, if SuperDad was just supposed to be a fill-in until new52 Superman returns, they'd have written stuff a lot differently, wouldn't they?

[LordTrump]

Isn't that Oz guy from John's run on Superman? And didn't he like capture Tim Drake or something?

You think a Rebirth was planned way sooner than we think?