Whose life is it anyway? : The Nuperman/Superdad conundrum

[Lokimaru]

I want to preface what I'm about to say with all the cards on the table. I personally prefer the current incarnation of Superman compared to his New 52 counterpart. That's not to say one is superior to the other,and that's not to say I didn't like many aspects of the New 52, because I certainly did. However,i thought that the degree they rebooted the character to get to those changes took away more than was gained and while the core characterization of Superman WAS much improved from what the prior version devolved to in it's last few years,much of everything else ,in my opinion,because I'm only speaking for myself,was a giant step down. What was gained from the reboot ( a characterization closer to the PreCrisis version of Superman or at the very least a more assertive Superman) could have been accomplished with better writing and hiring writers that got the character,and didn't require a quarter of a century's worth of continuity and world building and stories completely being tossed out and replaced with....well... really not a whole lot.

However,i did not and still do not approve of how DC has handled all this. Doing a cut and paste job is convoluted as all get out and only served to further muddy the waters. It would have been more simple to just retcon in the alterations via the " missing" time to steer Nuperman towards a more classic take on Superman or to even bring about the return of the Marriage and Jon's existence. Not everyone would have liked it and some would still would have belly ached over certain ships going away or complained about the idea of Superman being a father ,but at the least we wouldn't have to go through the convolutions of,say,Lois Lane having to be killed off and having another Lois Lane take over and everyone being okay with it,as we saw in the recent ACTION.

Now having said all of that...

We were told in the REBIRTH special that the New 52 is indeed the preFlashpoint universe,just altered via meddling from a third party whose motives are yet revealed. Meaning the Batman of the New 52 is the same Batman as before,but with altered memories. Same with Flash,Wonder Woman,Green Lantern,etc.

Now,assuming Superdad is indeed his preFlashpoint self ,and he missed having his memories altered because of events outside of his control,ans assuming Nuperman was some sort of anomaly and replacement.... can the argument be made that technically speaking,isnt Superdad and by extension Lois just reclaiming their actual lives and Nuperman and his Lois inadvertently were actually the interlopers that " stole" Superdad and Lois' place in the world?

The very fact we are forced to consider this is telling but....well...we are already here. Truth be known, it's not as cut and dry as Perhaps it looks on the surface.a case could be made for either being the interloper who stole the other Superman's place.

So the question is..who is the real interloper? Nuperman or Superdad?

But we SAW where Superdad came from, out side the system. Nuperman was Pre-Flashpoint Superman And the Superman of Flashpoint. He's the Superman of this universe and they cowardly killed him off and replaced him with a Doppleganger just for doing exactly what he was supposed to do, BE NEW (New Attitude, New Enemies Ect.), anything else is just added on bullshit to make the bitter pill of what DC did go down easier period.

[Lokimaru]

The Only reason they Killed Nuperman is cause for some reason he was too different from his previous self even though other characters are also in that same boat, Barry ain't married to Iris Wally ain't Married with Children so why did Nuperman get the hook when so many other character are not towing the line ether? The answer is Jurgens.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But we SAW where Superdad came from, out side the system. Nuperman was Pre-Flashpoint Superman And the Superman of Flashpoint. He's the Superman of this universe and they cowardly killed him off and replaced him with a Doppleganger just for doing exactly what he was supposed to do, BE NEW (New Attitude, New Enemies Ect.), anything else is just added on bullshit to make the bitter pill of what DC did go down easier period.

That's just gonna be retconned way and explained away. Nuperman will be revealed to be the interloper from another dimension or the creation of Mr. Oz. This is comics. And, to be completely honest, none of the changes they did for Superman (or really any of the characters) in the New 52 proved popular. In fact, many of them were outright reviled. So, DC is reverting back to the Pre-Flashpoint continuity, and Superman (in the pre-FP days) was the heart and soul of the DC Universe. Reverting things back should start with him.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The Only reason they Killed Nuperman is cause for some reason he was too different from his previous self even though other characters are also in that same boat, Barry ain't married to Iris Wally ain't Married with Children so why did Nuperman get the hook when so many other character are not towing the line ether? The answer is Jurgens.

Uh. Wally remembers his marriage to Linda and his children. He also remembers Barry being married to Iris, as evidenced by his incredulous reaction to Barry saying that Iris and him are only friends. That's the whole point of Rebirth: DC is saying "Hey remember all those stories you read for decades? Well, they're all still in continuity, but somebody snatched them from the time stream. Don't worry though! The heroes are working to reclaim those stories and their lives."

[superduperman]

Does anything else think this dragging on too long in the era of twice a month comics?

Really, these questions haven't even been just hanging in the air since the big extra-length DC Universe wide Rebirth comic on May 31, they've been hanging in the air since the first issue of Lois and Clark, to some degree. But just counting the Superman specific Rebirth issues and the 3 titles (Superman, Action Comics, Justice League), we've got 6 months x 3 titles x 2 issues a month=36 issues of mystery through November (I'm assuming if it was going to be wrapped up this month, we'd know). Maybe Justice League started a month late, now that I think about it, but sub in the general DC universe Rebirth that was like 80 pages as a double issue, and you hit 36 again.

However, like I said, those 36 issues are really just the continuation of a mystery that began in Lois and Clark, which is another 8 issues, for 44 issues. This was also part of the Death of Superman arc that took over 4 monthly comics for April and May, so 52 issues, where both Supermen who involved and this mystery was there. I don't know if we want to count the 4 New52 Superman titles before that point, but Mr. Oz first showed up in like, what, issue 40 or something of one of those titles? So, at that point, we'd be talking like 100 issues of Superman titles- assuming you don't count the new52 Justice League and New52 JLA (The latter is an awesome series, this is just talking relevancy, not how good the titles are or aren't), which would make it even more issues.

This mystery just isn't compelling enough to have seen it dragged out for 100 issues plus. Also, they've failed to really advance the ball a whole lot. Granted, the Superman line itself underwent a near-complete revamp that just barely technically avoided being a reboot in Rebirth, but that's not in and of itself advancing the ball on the central mystery. Rebirth just gave us a few clues- neither Superman is who he thinks he is, the missing 10 years, and that Mr. Oz had old-universe Doomsday in cage. Maybe I am forgetting old, but not a whole lot.

If they really push it to Action Comics 1000 or something, we should be up at like 400 issues at that point. What do they gain from dragging it out? I get that a few continuing mysteries and story threads hook readers and make them want to continue with titles they might otherwise get bored with for whatever reason, but I think readers can also get sick of being strung along, too, especially after things that are very central, like what universe this is set in and the nature and background of the main characters. It'd be easy for readers to just say "Forget it, the issue(s) that resolve it will be heavily promoted and I'll check back then if I still care at this point".

I mean, all of us have only so many years on this earth and only so many times we'll read a new Superman comic. Why not wrap this up and then have the last page or two be a hook to the next "great" mystery or whatever? I mean, it doesn't have to be like everything gets started and wrapped up in one issue or one story arc or whatever, but it's reasonable to sort of expect them to wrap up stuff by 100 issues later, and maybe even way before, isn't it?

Somewhere some fan is sitting there who's going to have a heart attack tomorrow and die or get run over a bus or something, and he's not going to get the answer to the end of the storyline. Not that that'll be his biggest problem, obviously. Not by a long shot. But they could have given that guy, and anyone still reading their comics at this point the end of that mystery and several more by now without rushing anything and "cheating" the audience with an overly condensed thing. We're way passed over condensed, through condensed, through the right length, and on to taking way, way, too long.

THISTHISTHISTHISTHIS!!!!!!! I am so sick and tired of these multi-year storylines that take two or three years to resolve anything and by the time they do, it wasn't worth it to begin with. And they've dong this since before Flashpoint! How many origin reboots alone has Superman had? All some variation on some version that came before and it takes us something like three years AFTER that particular version debuts before we find out what it is. And New 52 was no exception, BTW. Character debuted in 2011 and we didn't get a comprehensive origin until 2014.

I get that they want long term fan investment but we're entering soap opera territory here. And for the record, I don't have a problem with the concept of Superdad. I'm like the OP, I have a problem with the way it was handled. Throwing away Nuperman like he didn't matter. Imagine you're trying to sell a new reader on the idea of reading Superman comics right now. What are you going to tell them about what is going on with the books? "Oh, well, the main universe Superman is dead but they brought back the old Superman from the previous universe and he's married to Lois and they have a kid but none of them may be the real version anyway". Yeah, pass. This outsider status can't remain the status quo forever. I still think the hand on the grave from the Rebirth special means something but I'm not in the mood to wait until 2018 or whenever to find out. I don't care THAT much.

I cut my teeth on the old pre-Crisis Superman books so I'm used to and more accustomed to the single issue story format. I'm not opposed to reading a three or four issue story in one title but when I have to buy every book a character is in for three years or more just to find out who they are, I'll read something else. Nertz to this.

[Kid_Quantum]

EDIT: Forget it........

[Sacred Knight]

The Only reason they Killed Nuperman is cause for some reason he was too different from his previous self even though other characters are also in that same boat, Barry ain't married to Iris Wally ain't Married with Children so why did Nuperman get the hook when so many other character are not towing the line ether? The answer is Jurgens.

Actually Johns is probably the prime offender. Jurgens just jumped at the chance for his pitch for a kid.

[manofsteel1979]

Actually Johns is probably the prime offender. Jurgens just jumped at the chance for his pitch for a kid.

As I understand it from an interview,Jurgens pitched for Jon being the son of New 52 Superman and Lois Lane in the FUTURE'S END timeline. DiDio rejected it,because he didn't want an infant Superkid ,so Jurgens reworked Jon as the son of preFlashpoint Superman and Lois.

If Jurgens had gotten his original pitch approved,theres a possibility that REBIRTH Superman may have ended up being the older New 52 Superman and Lois from the FUTURE'S END timeline , which would have made more sense and would have been a much smoother transition and would have made all of this far less creepy. Add back the missing 10 years which could have easily been the best bits of the preFlashpoint stuff and get the same result as what we have now,just sans the impersonation crap.

So it's probably more Dan DiDio's fault we got the Superdad we have than anyone,ironically. Jurgens doesn't run DC after all. He's just making the best of a convoluted situation that DiDio and Johns likely dropped in his lap.

[Sacred Knight]

I don't know, I kinda doubt that because I still think Johns would have done this anyway. Even without Rebirth, some variation of this basic concept. To me, his Superman run was entirely about that. I can't prove it of course beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the strong evidence is there. The threads introduced there that are now playing a big part in the mystery of the replacing of Superman isn't a coincidence nor just something that was conveniently there to use in my opinion. To me he was planning to do this or some variation of this for two years before Rebirth. If Jurgens' pitch had somehow gone over for Futures End, I honestly don't see it changing much in regards to this idea.

[manofsteel1979]

I don't know, I kinda doubt that because I still think Johns would have done this anyway. Even without Rebirth, some variation of this basic concept. To me, his Superman run was entirely about that. I can't prove it of course beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the strong evidence is there. The threads introduced there that are now playing a big part in the mystery of the replacing of Superman isn't a coincidence nor just something that was conveniently there to use in my opinion. To me he was planning to do this or some variation of this for two years before Rebirth. If Jurgens' pitch had somehow gone over for Futures End, I honestly don't see it changing much in regards to this idea.

Still,it just means Jurgens is just making the best of a bad situation. I'm not saying Jurgens doesn't prefer a Superman closer to the guy he's writing now. He clearly does and he clearly didn't care for Nuperman,thus his FUTURE's END pitch as the beginning of a work around of sorts and to give Supes and Lois a kid. It doesn't excuse some of Jurgens questionable writing,but for all we know,the whole impersonation stuff is more Geoff Johns than Dan Jurgens. He's just the poor bastard that has to make it work and fit within the story Johns started in his SUPERMAN run.

I certainly wish Jurgens pitch was approved. It would have yielded the same result without all the hoops we are having to jump through to get Lois and Clark back to the Daily Planet with child in tow.

[Lokimaru]

Actually Johns is probably the prime offender. Jurgens just jumped at the chance for his pitch for a kid.

Considering that Johns helped create Nuperman that's like killing one of your kids.

[Sacred Knight]

From the effort he puts into the character compared to other properties it sure doesn't seem like he has all that much investment in any version of the character. I get the feeling the most he cares about Superman at any point is just making sure everything gets back to/stays at his childhood status quo. He seems to lose interest fast beyond that. Granted he's put some effort into crafting this switch...but its hard to credit him for that when the idea is so mind-numbingly stupid on the face of it.

In any case the moral of the story is that Geoff Johns is Superman poison.

[manofsteel1979]

Considering that Johns helped create Nuperman that's like killing one of your kids.

As I understand it Johns was never too keen on Nuperman from the get go. He went along with it because A) he was a company man and B) they let his work on the Green Lantern franchise stand. If he had his way,i doubt Nuperman would have even existed.

[Superlad93]

As I understand it Johns was never too keen on Nuperman from the get go. He went along with it because A) he was a company man and B) they let his work on the Green Lantern franchise stand. If he had his way,i doubt Nuperman would have even existed.

Yeah. My understanding is that it was over his head. Given how upset Johns was about what the new 52 did to Kon-El, I doubt he had much if any involvement in the new 52 Superman world before his run. I mean, why would he allow Kon-El to become a character that he feels no connection with if he were responsible for the New 52 Superman's character and world. It doesn't add up.

[Dataweaver]

As I understand it from an interview,Jurgens pitched for Jon being the son of New 52 Superman and Lois Lane in the FUTURE'S END timeline. DiDio rejected it,because he didn't want an infant Superkid ,so Jurgens reworked Jon as the son of preFlashpoint Superman and Lois.

If Jurgens had gotten his original pitch approved,theres a possibility that REBIRTH Superman may have ended up being the older New 52 Superman and Lois from the FUTURE'S END timeline , which would have made more sense and would have been a much smoother transition and would have made all of this far less creepy. Add back the missing 10 years which could have easily been the best bits of the preFlashpoint stuff and get the same result as what we have now,just sans the impersonation crap.

So it's probably more Dan DiDio's fault we got the Superdad we have than anyone,ironically. Jurgens doesn't run DC after all. He's just making the best of a convoluted situation that DiDio and Johns likely dropped in his lap.

Eh. Whether Rebirth Superman ended up being ten-years-older pre-FP Superman replacing current Superman or ten-years-older Futures End Superman replacing current Superman, you would have had to make Nuperman go away and his replacement step into his shoes. The only thing that would have changed would have been which kind of timeline shenanigans are used to explain the replacement.