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  1. #1
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    Default Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

    Hey all. So, Rebirth! DC, in the Rebirth special effectively retconned to New 52 into simply being an extension of the Pre-Flashpoint DC Universe. I get that there is some disagreement among people here about the truth of that statement, but we can talk about that in the "Rebirth Universe" thread. However, what people can't deny that is DC is DEFINITELY re-establishing a lot of Pre-Flashpoint stuff as canon in the current DCU and undoing a lot of the changes that were wrought under the New 52. So...I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread that catalogued the stuff from Pre-Flashpoint that was being made (or remade) canon. I think it would be useful to get a handle on what exactly is happening with the DC Universe going forward from Rebirth and to get a handle on who the characters of the DCU are.

    So, I'm encouraging people here to post on this thread with examples they notice in the books they're reading of things that they see that either references a story arc or development or elements from Pre-Flashpoint or implies that such a story arc development or element has now been recanonized.

    That is the mission of this thread: to keep tabs on the stuff they're bringing back

    I'll start off with the things I have noticed:


    • Big One: Well, Pre-Flashpoint Superman is back with 100% of his memories from before Flashpoint intact. So, pretty much both Superman books (Superman and Action) are just 100% continuation of Pre-Flashpoint.
    • Another Big One: Wally is back, with memories of his Pre-Flashpoint life (his marriage to Linda. his kids, his time as the Flash) intact. He is effectively established as being Pre-Flashpoint because, in the solicits, Titans #7 says that Wally and Superman will "recognize" each other. So, if Superman is 100% Pre-Flashpoint Superman, then Wally is then from Pre-Flashpoint himself.
      In Deathstroke:
    • Rose is now established as having been trained by Nightwing again, as she has referenced this. This was something that originally happened during Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing
    • In Deathstroke #5, Damian brings up how Grant Wilson (Slade's oldest son) ran off and joined H.I.V.E. as the first Ravager and then died. This seemingly tracks with his first appearance in New Teen Titans #2 from 1980 and goes directly against the New 52 (which showed him as alive)
    • The Creeper is returning as his Pre-Flashpoint self
    • Pat Trayce, the third vigilante and Slade's former lover, makes an appearance in a flashback in Deathstroke #6
      In Batman:
    • Selina now remembers that Batman is Bruce Wayne again, implying that Hush (the story arc where Bruce tells Selina his secret) is now back in continuity. Again, this goes against the New 52, which apparently erased her knowledge of Batman's secret identity.
      In All-Star Batman:
    • The Great White remarks to KG Beast that everybody believed that he was dead before they contacted him to track down Batman, suggesting that "Face to Face," the story arc that kicked off Batman's return to active duty after Infinite Crisis is back in continuity
    • Cheshire appears in issue #2 as her Pre-Flashpoint self
      In Green Lanterns:
    • Issue #9 shows Hal Jordan in a flashback rescuing the Flaming Spear, in what essentially is a scene ripped directly from Showcase #22 (1959). The dialogue is even more or less the same. It turns out that Frank Laminski (the "bad guy") was actually the pilot of the Flaming Spear.
    • That same issue also makes reference to Jeremiah Clutcher when recounting John's first appearance. In 1971's "Beware My Power" (aka John Stewart's debut), Jeremiah Clutcher was the racist Senator who planned a shooting to take place at his own rally and John had to save a cop from the gunman's bullet. Green Lanterns #9 shows John saving that same cop and shows him looking exactly the same as he did in that story.
    • Again, in that same issue, we see 90s-style Kyle fighting Mongul.
      In Nightwing:
    • Dick references that he got his Nightwing identity from Superman: "Big Blue told me about these legendary heroes from his home planet, Nightwing and Flamebird." I believe that goes against what was established in the New 52. I think "Nightwings" may have been established as some sort of Kryptonian creature in New 52. They've reverted back, apparently.
      In Doom Patrol:
    • The current Doom Patrol volume picks up from Morrison's run, and disregards the New 52 versions of the Doom Patrol that were introduced (including young Niles Caulder)
    • In issue #3, Flex Mentallo makes explicit reference to the Men from N.O.W.H.E.R.E. and the counterfeit version that tried to kill Danny the Street and the battle with the Doom Patrol that ensued.
    • Also in Issue #3, Larry Trainor (aka Negative Man) makes explicit reference to him, Rita Farr, Cliff, and the Chief all dying on Oolong Island (the classic death of the Doom Patrol story) and also recounts Crazy Jane.
    • Here's the link to the preview for issue #3 for those interested: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/articl...3/1100-156174/
      In Detective Comics:
    • During Night of the Monster Men, Dick says that he was Robin "as a kid." New 52 changed his origin so that he became Robin in his late teens (around 17). This would appear to be a signal of them retconning it back to the age he was previous to Flashpoint.
      In Wonder Woman:
    • Barbara Ann Minerva (aka Cheetah) basically gets her old origin back. Remember when she popped up in the New 52 Justice League, Johns cast her as a con woman who had had multiple different identities? Now, she's just plain old Barbara Minerva, British archaeologist, again. Plus, instead of being possessed by the Goddess of the Hunt because of being cut by the Amazonian dagger (the New 52 origin), her becoming Cheetah is once again the product of her being cursed by the plant god Urzkartaga (the pre-Flashpoint origin).
      In Red Hood & the Outlaws:
    • Jason gets his pre-Flashpoint origin back.
      Batman Annual #1: A virtual treasure trove of Pre-Flashpointness
      In the story by Dini and Adams:
    • It is fully established that Harley Quinn's New 52 look is not her original look, as several people are dressed up as her in her Pre-Flashpoint garb. There's even a balloon of her that is modeled on her Pre-Flashpoint look
    • Batman is seen in his classic costume: i.e. no bat-guantlets and, yes, WITH the trunks.
    • And, last but not least, Harley references Silent Night of the Batman from 1970's Batman #219, in which Batman goes carolling with the Gotham City Police.
      Direct Current Magazine:
    • There's a page with the super villains that will be the center of the conflict between the JLA and the Suicide Squad (Lobo, Johnny Sorrow, Emerald Empress, Rustam, Dr. Polaris, Max Lord) and their origins and backstories that are laid out in the text boxes match up with their Pre-Flashpoint backstories
    • Also, Max now has his powers back. I can't remember if he had them in his New 52 appearance or not. I wonder if he or Wonder Woman will remember how she killed him
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 11-30-2016 at 07:17 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  2. #2
    You guessed it mr_crisp's Avatar
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    Psycho Pirate in 'Batman' is the original looking one and not the New 52 looking one.

    The Creeper is returning as his Pre-Flashpoint self
    That is good. I didn't like the look of the New 52 one.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_crisp View Post
    Psycho Pirate in 'Batman' is the original looking one and not the New 52 looking one.
    *Quickly googles New 52 Psycho Pirate*

    Ew....
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

    DC Pulls - Action Comics; Bug! Adventures of Forager; Deathstroke; Doom Patrol; Hal Jordan & the GLC; Mister Miracle; Superman

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  4. #4
    BANNED colonyofcells's Avatar
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    Right before Rebirth, Titans Hunt had restored much of pre coie Teen Titans history (early 1970s) such as Mal Duncan, Lilith, Gnarrk, Hawk and Dove being members. Bumblebee is from the 1970s bob rozakis Teen Titans. One difference seems to be when and how the male Dove died. The female Dove is actually from post-coie (1989). I would assume the pre coie Marv and George Perez Teen Titans (started in early 1980s) is also back in history since that was the Teen Titans that fought the son of Deathstroke. Maybe DC will undo Cyborg as the founder of JL. It can probably be explained as Cyborg being one of the founders of a reformed JL after JL became inactive for a short period of time.
    I am also curious if Oz or Dr Manhattan is actively erasing some of the New 52 versions such as New 52 Lobo, New 52 Psycho Pirate, New 52 Creeper, etc. or is the pre flashpoint history just slowly leaking back bec of some reasons (such as pre flashpoint Wally breaking out of his trap).
    Last edited by colonyofcells; 11-05-2016 at 02:29 PM.

  5. #5
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    There are hints that Barry Allen is starting to remember having died in the First Crisis (i.e. COIE).

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  6. #6
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post


    • In All-Star Batman:
    • The Great White remarks to KG Beast that everybody believed that he was dead before they contacted him to track down Batman, suggesting that "Face to Face," the story arc that kicked off Batman's return to active duty after Infinite Crisis is back in continuity
    • Cheshire appears in issue #2 as her Pre-Flashpoint self
    All-star Batman is in continuity? I thought it was like All-star Superman, an story self-contained in his own reality.
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  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    All-star Batman is in continuity? I thought it was like All-star Superman, an story self-contained in his own reality.
    Nope, same continuity as the rest of the DCU.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  8. #8
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colonyofcells View Post
    Right before Rebirth, Titans Hunt had restored much of pre coie Teen Titans history (early 1970s) such as Mal Duncan, Lilith, Gnarrk, Hawk and Dove being members. Bumblebee is from the 1970s bob rozakis Teen Titans. One difference seems to be when and how the male Dove died. The female Dove is actually from post-coie (1989). I would assume the pre coie Marv and George Perez Teen Titans (started in early 1980s) is also back in history since that was the Teen Titans that fought the son of Deathstroke. Maybe DC will undo Cyborg as the founder of JL. It can probably be explained as Cyborg being one of the founders of a reformed JL after JL became inactive for a short period of time.
    I am also curious if Oz or Dr Manhattan is actively erasing some of the New 52 versions such as New 52 Lobo, New 52 Psycho Pirate, New 52 Creeper, etc. or is the pre flashpoint history just slowly leaking back bec of some reasons (such as pre flashpoint Wally breaking out of his trap).
    I would suppose the later. Also, when the time was stolen, where they 10 years in a row or the thief take different segments from several time periods?
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    All-star Batman is in continuity? I thought it was like All-star Superman, an story self-contained in his own reality.
    Just to be clear, this is the Snyder one and not the Miller one. I'm not really sure why they reused the title like that.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    A few more:

    - Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown's relationship, specifically the progression of it, which is part of the reason Tim's in his current situation.

    - Helena Bertinelli operating as Huntress again, with a comparable backstory.

    - Renee Montoya knows Batwoman's identity, which only happened while Renee served as the Question, so that may have come back (this one's a bit iffier, admittedly).
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
    Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
    Quasi-Fan of: Aquaman, Midnighter, Superman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Green Arrow, Squadron Supreme, Red Hood

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  11. #11
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I'll start off with the things I have noticed:

    • Big One: Well, Pre-Flashpoint Superman is back with 100% of his memories from before Flashpoint intact. So, pretty much both Superman books (Superman and Action) are just 100% continuation of Pre-Flashpoint.
    Uh, not exactly.
    Yes, pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois are back, and still have their pre-Flashpoint memories.
    BUT, in Action Comics (can't speak for Superman), they're still well aware they are on a different Earth and are now filling in for their counterparts who had already been there before them. So this isn't a full continuation of the pre-Flashpoint stories in terms of all the characters they interact with / the majority of the menaces that Superman has to deal with. For example, his problems with Luthor are based on the Luthor he fought with in the past, though he knows / is reminded that the New52 Luthor isn't exactly the same Luthor he's had to deal with on his previous Earth.

  12. #12
    Incredible Member KoriandrJean's Avatar
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    May I Add ...

    Four words: Ted Kord is ALIVE!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Uh, not exactly.
    Yes, pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois are back, and still have their pre-Flashpoint memories.
    BUT, in Action Comics (can't speak for Superman), they're still well aware they are on a different Earth and are now filling in for their counterparts who had already been there before them. So this isn't a full continuation of the pre-Flashpoint stories in terms of all the characters they interact with / the majority of the menaces that Superman has to deal with. For example, his problems with Luthor are based on the Luthor he fought with in the past, though he knows / is reminded that the New52 Luthor isn't exactly the same Luthor he's had to deal with on his previous Earth.
    Actually, it kinda is just a continuation of Pre-Flashpoint. The Rebirth special retconned it so that this Earth is the exact same Earth as the one Lois and Clark previously lived in. The only difference is that somebody (Dr. Manhattan) messed with time. DC has already outright said this: both in statements by company officials and in the Rebirth one-shot itself.

    Mr. Oz comes to Clark and tells them essentially that all is not what it seems. So, Clark and Lois only think that they are on a different Earth, but will soon learn that they are on their Earth, only that memories and time have been altered. Again, I'm going to point to Wally West. The solicit from Titans #7 says explicitly that Wally and Superman will "recognize" each other. That would require Wally and Superman to be from the same Earth. But Wally's from this Earth, and he knows the truth of how the timeline was altered. Superman does not, but will probably learn soon enough.

    So, this world's Luthor is the same Luthor that Clark frequently came up against in the past. Only Luthor has had his life tampered with and has forgotten those memories. After Rebirth runs its course, I expect that Luthor will recover those lost years/memories.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  14. #14
    Spectacular Member ProgmanX's Avatar
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    - There's also Harold Allnut not being dead in All-Star Batman, which coupled with Selina "remembering" that Bruce is Batman seems to suggest that, as mentioned above, Hush still happened in more or less the same way. Even though Eternal brought it back in broad strokes, initially. Harold surviving, but without receiving the surgery that Tommy promised him, is an easy thing to coalesce. Tommy intended to perform the procedure after he'd taken down Bruce, not before, and he failed in killing Harold. This also makes Clayface's bait-and-switch with Jason Todd all the more interesting, considering what's been going on in Detective.

    - Black Spider's brief appearance, also in All-Star Batman has a fun butterfly effect that ties allllll the way back to that time Cris Allen killed him in Gotham Central for the War Games tie-in. Normally, I wouldn't give this a second look, as there have been, iirc, three Black Spiders, but the one who attacks Batman appears to be the second one: John La Monica, the hired gun. No presumed metahuman abilities, like the third Black Spider, and certainly not a man out for vengeance against drug dealers like the first incarnation. Plus, he's definitely not the New52 version for the same reasons. Basically, since Cris never killed Black Spider, he was never under investigation due to Jim Corrigan (the corrupt CSI, not the Spectre host which only helps me here) holding evidence hostage. Which means that Renee never beat the snot out of him to get said evidence, so the IAB didn't lose the case they were building against Corrigan. Thus, Cris never went to investigate Corrigan himself in the final act of Gotham Central, as he had no reason to do so, so Corrigan didn't kill him. This is further supported by the fact that Renee didn't quit the GCPD this time around; according to her she transferred to Bludhaven for a while. Corrigan's failed murder conviction was what pushed her over the edge to quit, so: Cris ain't dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    A few more:

    - Renee Montoya knows Batwoman's identity, which only happened while Renee served as the Question, so that may have come back (this one's a bit iffier, admittedly).
    Not so sure about this, since as you said it's kinda iffy. Renee learned Kate was Batwoman long before becoming the Question, for starters. Way I see it, the only real prerequisite for Renee discovering Kate's identity as the Batwoman is that she was no longer working for the GCPD and was doing a private investigation that went crazy real fast. She could have easily taken some time off from police work before moving to Bludhaven. Taking on the mantle of The Question really only becomes necessary when the Final Crisis-related stuff starts happening---which might have still happened in some way because Bruce steals the Omega Sanction to bring Damian back to life?????---Vandal Savage being Cain, the Crime Bible, etc. Yes, she used her pseudo-derm mask to save Kate's life after getting stabbed in the heart, but ultimately how Renee saved her isn't a huge thing.

  15. #15
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    A lot of this is technically "classic elements" rather than specifically "pre-Flashpoint" but whatever turns you on.

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