Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[Lee Stone]

Man, you ever wonder what would have been if they had JUST relaunched, not rebooted? That would have saved us a world of headache.

Really, it would've been about the same.

Johns/Lee Justice League would be the big hit.
Batman, Detective and the Green Lantern books would've still been doing great.
Johns on Aquaman would've still pushed him up.
Wonder Woman by Azzarello would still garner attention.
Action Comics #1, Batman #1 and Detective Comics #1 would still be big sellers.
The new B-list and C-list titles would've still fell off and got cancelled.
The only real difference, I think, would've been the sales of the Superman books after the first issues.

And as Darknight Detective mentioned, the reboot really increased sales line-wide.

So, I'd wager that the big books listed above would've had 10% less sales than they did, while the other titles would've had about 25-40% less sales (with the B-list and C-List titles being around 40% less).

But it really depends on the marketing they used.
Justice League, Batman, Detective, Action, Aquaman and the Green Lantern titles may not have really seen any difference in sales.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Except DC didn't have nearly the same share of the market back in 2011 (or 1985) as Marvel had, so it's not really the same. If DC had been as successful as Stan's company? I'm confident DC would never had rebooted anytime in their history, Zeeguy.

That's the thing, though. I don't think they've ever HAD to reboot. If anything, constantly rebooting is what hurts them more than it helps them. I don't think it's coincidence that even after Crisis, they steadily kept working in past continuity from Pre-Crisis to the point when the Post-Crisis universe essentially WAS the Pre-Crisis universe and that Batman and Green Lantern (the properties that experiences the least change to their continuity every time) are their more sucessful properties.

I've spoken to people first hand who say that they have been scared away from DC because of the constant rebooting. There's a reason Marvel went back on their only attempt at it.

[The Darknight Detective]

That's the thing, though. I don't think they've ever HAD to reboot. If anything, constantly rebooting is what hurts them more than it helps them. I don't think it's coincidence that even after Crisis, they steadily kept working in past continuity from Pre-Crisis to the point when the Post-Crisis universe essentially WAS the Pre-Crisis universe and that Batman and Green Lantern (the properties that experiences the least change to their continuity every time) are their more sucessful properties.

Certainly, many Silver and Bronze age themes did come back, but Clutter Earth was still not the pre-COIE multiverse.

I've spoken to people first hand who say that they have been scared away from DC because of the constant rebooting. There's a reason Marvel went back on their only attempt at it.

Well, if you're asking me if DC did it right the two times they rebooted, I would say no. At least the New 52 had a better excuse in that they had to come up with something quick. DC had years to get the DCU right at its start, yet still had many continuity issues. But, again, they were both Hail Mary passes in order to keep DC afloat financially. Based on sales, they were successful at least in that regard.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well, if you're asking me if DC did it right the two times they rebooted, I would say no. At least the New 52 had a better excuse in that they had to come up with something quick. DC had years to get the DCU right at its start, yet still had many continuity issues. But, again, they were both Hail Mary passes in order to keep DC afloat financially. Based on sales, they were successful at least in that regard.

I don't know. To me, it just seemed like a lazy, cheap gimmick. Not saying it wasn't a successful gimmick for a few months, but a gimmick nonetheless. Instead of actually concentrating on making the books better or improving relations with creators they'd alienated, they scream "brand new universe" without much (or any) forethought and planning.

[The Darknight Detective]

I don't know. To me, it just seemed like a lazy, cheap gimmick. Not saying it wasn't a successful gimmick for a few months, but a gimmick nonetheless. Instead of actually concentrating on making the books better or improving relations with creators they'd alienated, they scream "brand new universe" without much (or any) forethought and planning.

When you're in a financial hole, a gimmick may be the only thing to get you out of it. It did the trick for quite a few years (not months ), but Convergence took the wind out of the New 52's sails.

Now, if you're asking me personally would I ever reboot beyond financial reasons, I doubt it. I would have been happy with the old pre-COIE universe with some tweaks here and there instead. Having said that, I was also a fan of the two later universes, so if it's good, I will read it.

[Maxi]

Today in Titans Annual #1, Batman mentioned Mageddon, who was the final villain of Morrison's JLA run. So we know that at least part of that is still canon.

[manofsteel1979]

Today in Titans Annual #1, Batman mentioned Mageddon, who was the final villain of Morrison's JLA run. So we know that at least part of that is still canon.

I think it's safe to say that if Grant Morrison or Geoff Johns wrote it, it's still canon. It was the case pre FLASHPOINT,New 52 ( with a few exceptions) and now.

[Lee]

I think it's safe to say that if Grant Morrison or Geoff Johns wrote it, it's still canon. It was the case pre FLASHPOINT,New 52 ( with a few exceptions) and now.

They tossed out Geoff Johns' entire runs on FLASH, TEEN TITANS and JUSTICE SOCIETY.

[Waterfall]

I'm pretty sure Wally's Flash career will be given back to him, even if it will be a short stunt in universe wise. Barry already mentioned Wally earning the name because there was a period when he took the mantle, so something about that is canon.

Which would make Morrison's JLA canon too. We just need confirmation from Kyle at this point.

[manofsteel1979]

They tossed out Geoff Johns' entire runs on FLASH, TEEN TITANS and JUSTICE SOCIETY.

That's where the " few exceptions" come in play, along with his preFlashpoint Superman run, although it looks like big chunks of it may survive or get woven into the new Post Reborn continiuity. As for the rest, time will tell. The Supermen merging may mean some of the above may suddenly be canon again.

[GlennSimpson]

Today in Titans Annual #1, Batman mentioned Mageddon, who was the final villain of Morrison's JLA run. So we know that at least part of that is still canon.

In the sense that someone named Mageddon apparently exists, sure. Everything else could be completely different.

[Dataweaver]

Much of Superman's 90s adventures are back in continuity: the courtship of Lois and Clark, the Death of Superman, and the marriage of Lois and Clark have been confirmed; others are back by implication.

But they're time-displaced, having happened a decade earlier than they did pre-Flashpoint. This pretty much makes it a given that, say, the Death and Return of Superman didn't happen precisely as written. The gist of the story can be assumed to remain the same; but specifics? Not so much. The Justice League that confronted Doomsday? Probably not the JSI. The Robin who participated in Funeral For a Friend? Dick, not Tim. Supergirl? Superman's cousin, not the Matrix Supergirl; and almost certainly not in a relationship with Luthor. The Cadmus Superboy's age is a difficult thing to judge; but making him a contemporary of Dick rather than Tim is a significant change.

Then there's Green Lantern. The restoration of the Death of Superman resolves some difficulties in the Green Lantern history; but shifting it back a decade introduces new complications: having Hal turn into Parallax so early in his career throws in a monkey wrench almost as big as the one caused by Cyborg Superman not being responsible for the destruction of Coast City.

[GlennSimpson]

Much of Superman's 90s adventures are back in continuity: the courtship of Lois and Clark, the Death of Superman, and the marriage of Lois and Clark have been confirmed; others are back by implication.

But they're time-displaced, having happened a decade earlier than they did pre-Flashpoint. This pretty much makes it a given that, say, the Death and Return of Superman didn't happen precisely as written. The gist of the story can be assumed to remain the same; but specifics? Not so much. The Justice League that confronted Doomsday? Probably not the JSI. The Robin who participated in Funeral For a Friend? Dick, not Tim. Supergirl? Superman's cousin, not the Matrix Supergirl; and almost certainly not in a relationship with Luthor. The Cadmus Superboy's age is a difficult thing to judge; but making him a contemporary of Dick rather than Tim is a significant change.

Then there's Green Lantern. The restoration of the Death of Superman resolves some difficulties in the Green Lantern history; but shifting it back a decade introduces new complications: having Hal turn into Parallax so early in his career throws in a monkey wrench almost as big as the one caused by Cyborg Superman not being responsible for the destruction of Coast City.

Did those stories happen earlier, or did they happen after Jon was born (which would also make them different in a few ways)?

After all, he still has to have been doing things for the last 10 years since Jon was born.

[Dataweaver]

The scenes shown in the last Action Comics splash page heavily imply a sequence of events as you move clockwise from the upper left: Jor-El and Lara, Kal-El's rocket, Smallville, Clark joining the Daily Planet, Clark revealing his identity to Lois, the Death of Superman, Lois and Clark getting married, Jon being born, baby Jon being introduced to the Daily Planet staff… everything else in the sequence is clearly in a before and after pattern; I don't see why the Death of Superman would be an exception.

As for what Superman has been doing for the past decade: if my theory is correct, the Death of Superman occurred early in what we'd call the Silver Age in this new timeline. That implies that the subsequent decade would be filled with Silver Age adventures — at least, those Silver Age adventures that are compatible with Lois and Clark being married. Which pretty much kills those stories featuring Lois trying to prove that Clark is secretly Superman. But I can live without those.

[Lee Stone]

In the sense that someone named Mageddon apparently exists, sure. Everything else could be completely different.

Too bad footnotes like 'see JLA #50' or similar is out of fashion.
It would help keep things more organized.

Or a letters page where a writer or editor would say, 'Yes... that is Mageddon. But not the one we've met before.' Or, 'Yes, it's the same Mageddon. And wait until you see how that story ties into this one!'

It's the simple things, really, that help avoid confusion.