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  1. #1096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    In itself, that means a new timeline for the "lost years", since the events are different.
    "Different" timeline, but same universe. Plus, all the chief differences between the New 52 and the Pre-Flashpoint timelines are already being minimized or straight up erased so that the universe we're reading now is essentially the Pre-Flashpoint universe, but with a few key things missing still (which presumably Doomsday Clock has been aimed at explaining and/or correcting). That's pretty much what Rebirth has been doing for the past two years.

    I doubt Pre-Flashpoint timeline (or memories) will return. It's seems more likely the characters will remember the "lost years" (which will be somewhat similar to Pre-Flaspoint timeline, but not equal) in the new timeline
    Except they already have been returning. For quite some time now. So, so many characters have had their origins and histories revert back to the way they were before Flashpoint. I mean...this very thread has been documenting that. Look at Martian Manhunter. Remember how in the New 52, he was apparently this guy who was on the outs with the League after getting into this huge brawl with them? Now, he's one of their most respected members and has this deep seated history with them...just like he did before Flashpoint.

    Also, in regards to memories returning, again, they already have. Look at Iris West. She now remembers Pre-Flashpoint essentially verbatim to how it was, just like Wally. She remembers Wally's marriage and his kids, herself being married to Barry, Barry dying and Wally becoming the Flash, etc. I mean, that itself is in Flash #51.

    So, all these memories and events have already been returning to the timeline.

    Not to mention that other things (like the fusion of three universes) happened in the Flashpoint.
    I mean, I don't see that many Wildstorm characters running around in the current DCU, do you? They even relaunched the Wildstorm line in its own universe again.

    NuWally had mentioned in Flash 51 that he only exist, because the Flashpoint happened. Then, I guess he's one of the differences created by Manhattan.
    But, again, he is no longer a replacement or rewrite for a pre-existing character. So, in essence, he is no different than just a new character introduced through any other means. I mean, Miles Morales started out in an entirely different universe (the ultimate universe) than the one he occupies now (the main Marvel 616 universe). He was only folded into the main Marvel continuity after Secret Wars. And yet, nobody is saying that the current Marvel timeline is a "different" Marvel timeline because of his presence.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 10-14-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  2. #1097
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Just because Jurgens didn't specifically bring it up, doesn't mean it didn't happen. These are superhero comics after all

    If the B13 virus speeding up time in Metropolis (or whatever else) happened prior to moving to Hamilton when Jon was 5ish, that would track perfectly with everything already laid out. It wouldn't change anything about his childhood on the farm. Any Superman-level craziness that DC inevitably uses to get Jon out of his toddler years faster than normal won't need to affect his relatively peaceful upbringing in Hamilton at all. In fact, whatever retcon they use to explain retconning Jon into DCU history could be used as the impetus for Lois & Clark for leaving Metropolis to live in the quieter, more out of the way, Hamilton.

    Otherwise, Jon's birth pushing everything pre-Death of Superman to a decade ago will screw up everyone else's timelines. After all the mess they caused with Wonder Woman and Hawkworld, I don't think DC is looking to repeat those same mistakes again.
    That would be nice, wouldn't it? But no. From Action #978, we learn that Lois and Clark went into hiding just after Jon's birth, not five years later:

    “Despite being nine months pregnant, Lois exposed a ring of arms smugglers intent on revenge. Metropolis was no longer safe. We had to go north. Accompanied by a couple of friends who'd make sure nothing would go wrong. [scene of Jon's birth] From that moment on, we were a family. My priorities changed. In order to give Jon a start with the attention a newborn needs, we took sabbaticals from the Planet and moved to California. I stepped away from the League. Kept to the shadows. Worked at night, unseen, outside the public eye, to do what had to be done. Lois was just as effective, writing as the mysterious “Author X”, exposing corruption and deceit wherever possible. It was a wonderfully peaceful existence that gave Jon the best start possible. I could have stayed there for the rest of my life. But that wasn't to be. The Planet needed us. We settled upstate, in Hamilton County. It was the best of both worlds, as we could take the bullet train into the city, while Jon could have a life similar to the one I enjoyed growing up.”

    In short, the only Superman shenanigans that impacted Jon's childhood was in the circumstances surrounding his birth: as soon as he was born, the Kents transitioned to a phase in their life that was essentially the backstory of Superman: Lois & Clark. No five-year jump-start on Jon's physical maturity, no time travel. For the bulk of Jon's childhood, his parents successfully kept the weirdness away from the farm. If they revise things again, so be it; but as things stand, Jon had an uneventful childhood from when he was a newborn until recently, when his powers started to manifest. That puts a nine-year gap some time after Lois and Clark got married and recent events, during which time Superman went dark.

    As I said, there are things that I would have done differently than Jurgens outlined in the Superman Reborn Aftermath. But we have to deal with what is, not what we wish it was.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 10-14-2018 at 09:56 PM.
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  3. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    That would be nice, wouldn't it? But no. From Action #978, we learn that Lois and Clark went into hiding just after Jon's birth, not five years later:

    In short, the only Superman shenanigans that impacted Jon's childhood was in the circumstances surrounding his birth: as soon as he was born, the Kents transitioned to a phase in their life that was essentially the backstory of Superman: Lois & Clark. No five-year jump-start on Jon's physical maturity, no time travel. For the bulk of Jon's childhood, his parents successfully kept the weirdness away from the farm. If they revise things again, so be it; but as things stand, Jon had an uneventful childhood from when he was a newborn until recently, when his powers started to manifest. That puts a nine-year gap some time after Lois and Clark got married and recent events, during which time Superman went dark.

    As I said, there are things that I would have done differently than Jurgens outlined in the Superman Reborn Aftermath. But we have to deal with what is, not what we wish it was.
    First off, since the dust hasn't yet settled on DC continuity, there's plenty of wiggle room for adjustments, particularly if they'll avoid a lot of more headaches down the line. Nothing Jurgens established is somehow holy writ that must be followed exactly. Whatever the DCU's post-Doomsday Clock is, it isn't finished yet. This cake is still baking.

    What's more, there's already a place for DC to insert some timey-whimey nonsense.

    “Despite being nine months pregnant, Lois exposed a ring of arms smugglers intent on revenge. Metropolis was no longer safe. We had to go north. Accompanied by a couple of friends who'd make sure nothing would go wrong. [scene of Jon's birth] From that moment on, we were a family. My priorities changed. In order to give Jon a start with the attention a newborn needs, we took sabbaticals from the Planet and moved to California. I stepped away from the League. Kept to the shadows. Worked at night, unseen, outside the public eye, to do what had to be done. Lois was just as effective, writing as the mysterious “Author X”, exposing corruption and deceit wherever possible. It was a wonderfully peaceful existence that gave Jon the best start possible. I could have stayed there for the rest of my life. But that wasn't to be. The Planet needed us.

    Right here. If you look at the art, Jon is about 5 years old here and we only see him as a baby in California. So, after a year of semi-retirement for Lois & Clark to raise baby Jon, they moved back to Metropolis in time for the B13 virus to make time go all crazy (or whatever other idea DC wants to use), and the citizens of Metropolis find that five or so years had passed for them once the crisis had passed, thereby explaining how baby Jon went from a toddler to a young boy while barely any time at all had passed for the rest of the DCU.

    We settled upstate, in Hamilton County. It was the best of both worlds, as we could take the bullet train into the city, while Jon could have a life similar to the one I enjoyed growing up.”

    Now, the comics don't need to be constantly be bringing up the time shenanigans that caused Jon (and a bunch of other kids in Metropolis) to be much older than he should be. They don't bring up the artificial aging that Damian went through in order for him to be 13 without making Batman too old either. They just need to bring it up once and move on. I don't want to see DC comics twist themselves into knots over the next decade trying to explain how the Death of Superman took place ten years ago when it clearly couldn't have.

    Just hand-wave it away and focus on telling good stories. Don't pointlessly screw up dozens of other characters just to make one character's retconned-in existence make sense.

  4. #1099
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    First, I'm not convinced that Damian's artificial aging is still in continuity. It was needed when you had the super-compressed five-year timeline that N52 started out with; but as of Rebirth, we're dealing with at least a fifteen-year timeline, possibly as much as a 25-year timeline; either one gives plenty of time for Damian to grow up naturally.

    Second, you'd think “We moved back to Metropolis for a time before moving to Hamilton County” is something Clark would have mentioned. Instead, the proper reading is “The Planet needed us, so we moved to Hamilton County”.

    And yes, they are free to revise things again. But we can't assume that they have until they do. As things currently stand, Jon never lived in Metropolis until recently.

    It's ironic that Damian's aging was inserted because the timeline became too compressed, and now we have fans proposing that Jon was artificially aged in order to keep the timeline from getting too long.
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  5. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    First off, since the dust hasn't yet settled on DC continuity, there's plenty of wiggle room for adjustments, particularly if they'll avoid a lot of more headaches down the line. Nothing Jurgens established is somehow holy writ that must be followed exactly. Whatever the DCU's post-Doomsday Clock is, it isn't finished yet. This cake is still baking.

    What's more, there's already a place for DC to insert some timey-whimey nonsense.

    “Despite being nine months pregnant, Lois exposed a ring of arms smugglers intent on revenge. Metropolis was no longer safe. We had to go north. Accompanied by a couple of friends who'd make sure nothing would go wrong. [scene of Jon's birth] From that moment on, we were a family. My priorities changed. In order to give Jon a start with the attention a newborn needs, we took sabbaticals from the Planet and moved to California. I stepped away from the League. Kept to the shadows. Worked at night, unseen, outside the public eye, to do what had to be done. Lois was just as effective, writing as the mysterious “Author X”, exposing corruption and deceit wherever possible. It was a wonderfully peaceful existence that gave Jon the best start possible. I could have stayed there for the rest of my life. But that wasn't to be. The Planet needed us.

    Right here. If you look at the art, Jon is about 5 years old here and we only see him as a baby in California. So, after a year of semi-retirement for Lois & Clark to raise baby Jon, they moved back to Metropolis in time for the B13 virus to make time go all crazy (or whatever other idea DC wants to use), and the citizens of Metropolis find that five or so years had passed for them once the crisis had passed, thereby explaining how baby Jon went from a toddler to a young boy while barely any time at all had passed for the rest of the DCU.

    We settled upstate, in Hamilton County. It was the best of both worlds, as we could take the bullet train into the city, while Jon could have a life similar to the one I enjoyed growing up.”

    Now, the comics don't need to be constantly be bringing up the time shenanigans that caused Jon (and a bunch of other kids in Metropolis) to be much older than he should be. They don't bring up the artificial aging that Damian went through in order for him to be 13 without making Batman too old either. They just need to bring it up once and move on. I don't want to see DC comics twist themselves into knots over the next decade trying to explain how the Death of Superman took place ten years ago when it clearly couldn't have.

    Just hand-wave it away and focus on telling good stories. Don't pointlessly screw up dozens of other characters just to make one character's retconned-in existence make sense.
    The whole of Metropolis going through five extra years compared to the rest of the DCU isn't just a 'one-and-done' swept under the rug deal. Its something that would have long-term ramifications that need to be dealt with.

    I agree there are a lot of timeline issues that have to be worked out. But there are frankly bigger ones than just the Death and Return of Superman.

  6. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    The whole of Metropolis going through five extra years compared to the rest of the DCU isn't just a 'one-and-done' swept under the rug deal. Its something that would have long-term ramifications that need to be dealt with.
    Why? With all the crazy nonsense that the people in the DCU, particularly those in superhero-centric cities like Metropolis and Gotham, I don't think most people would look twice at a time hiccup giving them five extra years while the rest of the world only had one.

    It's already a running joke that no sane person would ever want to live or conduct business in a place as violent and dangerous as Gotham City, yet there are still clearly millions of people living there. I think the residents of Metropolis have a similarly nonchalant view of the regularly occurring craziness that living in that city brings with it.

  7. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    And yes, they are free to revise things again. But we can't assume that they have until they do. As things currently stand, Jon never lived in Metropolis until recently.
    I'm not assuming anything, I am simply making a suggestion of how DC could solve this problem with least amount of continuity headaches. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to bend over backwards to rewrite vast chunks of the DCU's history in order to accommodate one poorly thought out decision by Jurgens and an editor who isn't even working at the company anymore.

  8. #1103
    Fantastic Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Or you could just ignore the timeline issues and move forward, rather than wasting time trying to have everything fit chronologically.

  9. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Or you could just ignore the timeline issues and move forward, rather than wasting time trying to have everything fit chronologically.
    That's been tried, and never succeeded because inevitably, a new story is rooted in something developed from the past. I don't think this genie can be put back into the bottle.

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  10. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Or you could just ignore the timeline issues and move forward, rather than wasting time trying to have everything fit chronologically.
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