Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

He said Tamaraneans aged slower.

Yeah, that doesn't even make sense the way you're using it. She doesn't exist in a bubble where time passes more slowly. Her chronological age adds up the same as everyone else. Her aging at a slower rate, as Meyers said, would mean that if she currently has been alive 18 chronological years, then she should have the body of someone much younger, ala Ms. Martian from the YJ cartoon who was 48 Earth years old, but only had the body of an adolescent. So, assuming Ms. Martian had the body of a 15-year-old when that was said, the rate of aging for her was 3.2 Earth years equaling one Martian year. If we applied that rate of aging to Starfire, then to be chronologically 18, she'd have to have the body of an Earth child about the age of 5 or 6. I somehow doubt that DC would be okay with Dick dipping his toes in those waters.

Obviously, however, Starfire has an adult woman's body. So if she's got an 18-year-old's body in a biological sense, then her actual chronological age would be 57.6 Earth years. So...not really a teenager and therefore obviously "too old" to be a Teen Titan as per your standards. It would also mean that Dick was 17 while she was about 53. So, in that case it goes from Dick being the one committing a crime to Starfire being the creepy one.

Even if the rate of aging was only 1.5 Earth years for every Tamaranian year, then Starfire would still be about 27 Earth years old to be biologically 18. And if she was chronologically 18 with that rate of aging, she'd have to have the body of a 12-year-old. Again, don't think DC would want Dick getting up in that.

Bottom line: Her "aging slower" means that for her to be biologically a teenager, she'd have to be chronologically much older. That would mean she's not really a "teenager" and as such, according to your definition of the "Teen" Titans, she doesn't belong on that team.

[BatmanJones]

Hopefully. CRY FOR JUSTICE is one story that needs to stay lost in oblivion forever.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

AGREED. And Robinson's whole run on JL too. He just wasn't the same writer when he came out of retirement.

I know a lot of people feel this way about Identity Crisis as well though it's my favorite JL(A) story ever. At least there's some controversy around that one.

I don't know of a single person that's nostalgic for Robinson on Cry for Justice or JLA. I'm in favor of Rebirth winding up with an "it ALL happened" approach to continuity, going all the way back to putting JSA on Earth-Two before CoIE created "clutter earth." But if one story is to be removed from continuity please let it be this one.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Green Lanterns #24 preview: http://www.freaksugar.com/exclusive-...n-lanterns-24/

Jessica references another very famous moment from the JLI.



That, coupled with Ryan's statement from last issue of JLA, and its looking more and more like that incarnation of the League might be back in continuity now. So....the history of the League is looking more and more like a jumbled mess. Are we sure Cyborg is still a founder in current continuity?

[DJ1107]

I too wonder how exactly the Justice League History goes in this Post-Rebirth continuity given how Superman & Batman actually met Wonder Woman & that we now have supposedly had 2 iterations of International now.

I mean I can buy their first enemy was still Darkseid & stuff like Graves, Thrones of Atlantis, Trinity War, Forever Evil, & Darkseid War still happened but I like to have some lingering issues answered regarding the founding roster. Particularly with Cyborg since his age is a bit wonky now giving that as of this time he should roughly be entering his 30's by now unless they're still going with the whole "Is he a man turned machine or a machine that thinks he's a man" drama & say he hasn't truly aged in the past 15 years.

Maybe get someone other than Bryan Hitch who's too busy in his own continuity to explore a new "Year One" for the League or trying to explain it eventually.

[sustainentropy]

It's been a while since I posted about any of this stuff. I agree that they seem to be teasing an incorporation of much of past continuity into an expanded 15 year timeline, with small changes here and there where needed. Not that the Rebirth stuff won't count, but instead the characters' backstories will once again be expanded to include most important stories from their past, such as the original formation of the league as teased in the button crossover.

Priest mentioned on his blog a few days ago that Cyborg wasn't a founding member of the Titans in this continuity, so he couldn't revisit the original Judas Contract as planned, but he then added "Yet. Stay tuned." This leads me to believe that everything Titans will be put back in place following Doomsday Clock, instead of following the truncated timeline referenced as "broken" by Kadabra in an early issue of this volume of Titans.

It makes sense considering the cover art of the original JLA in the hourglass on the front page of Previews last year too. Johns has always been about everything counting to some extent, evidenced by his work on Green Lantern: Rebirth, so this seems to be the logical conclusion.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Here's that post from Priest's blog:

First, we broke the story as a group, the way writers work on television shows and often feature films. We plotted together viA conference calls and emails, and everybody reviewed everybody else’s work, while editor Alex Antone coordinated all of our efforts.

Second, it was unique in that, well, I’m new here (at DC). I really wasn’t as aware of the intricacies of the minefield that is DC Universe continuity. My pitch for this (I’ve been pushing for it for nearly a year) was to revisit “The Judas Contract,” Marv Wolfman and George Perez’s defining story arc of the New Teen Titans. We were going to J.J. Abrams the thing in order to build a firewall around the original story–so it can never be retconned or ignored–while re-telling it with the post-Rebirth continuity.

But the old continuity was just a mess. Cyborg was never a Titan. Starfire, Raven– it was terribly difficult to sort all of that out. My preference was to not bother; just show blocks of the original story with the original cast without explaining why Cyborg is now a founding member of the Justice League and never a Titan.

As I see it, both DC and Marvel (but especially DC) wastes way too much time on process stories. I’m tired of reading process stories– stories that explain why this character is now wearing a red hat instead of a yellow one. Who cares. Entertain me.

Comics fans aren’t idiots and, sadly, they aren’t kids anymore. Rather than go through the whole Rebirth thing, and what seems to be endless process stories being written ever since, I’d simply have had Batman turn to camera, breaking the fourth wall, and be honest with the DC comics fan: “We fucked up.” Now, on with our show.

Comics should be Good Stories Well Told. That’s it. Personally, am not entertained by all of these comics that invest multi-issue story arcs explaining the red hat/yellow hat thing. I don’t care. I’m 56 years old, I understand things have changed.

Somewhere along the way we’ve stopped entertaining and gotten morosely engaged with this continuity stuff. Continuity exists to serve the stories, not the other way around.

Ultimately, because of the varying events both past and upcoming, it proved impossible to do the JJ thing, so editor Antone came up with the next best thing. “Lazarus…” walks right up to the Judas Contract and knocks on the door, but we don’t fully go there because, honestly, we couldn’t. Yet. Stay tuned.

What we do have, however, is a fun and entertaining romp which re-establishes the broken link (why’d they break it?) between Deathstroke and the Titans. Now that’s a good thing and well worth reading.

Reading the posts following Lazarus Contract's piss-poor reception, you can tell Priest feels stung by how little love it's gotten. Unfortunately, it seems like he's taking the wrong lessons from it, thinking that people just want Damian to be super well-adjusted and OG Wally to have a perfect life, which is completely missing the point of what disappointed fans, but at least he's listening.

However, his comments do seem to indicate pretty strongly that the end game of Rebirth is a more complete restoration of DC's history, including the New Teen Titans. He's also as frustrated as I am for why DC feels the need to waste so much time sorting out its continuity. Why does Rebirth have to be stretched out over two years when it could easily be done in six issues or less.

I continue to be astonished by how little forward progress we've made since DC Universe Rebirth #1. Just get over with it already, establish whatever the new "greatest hits" history is going to be, and move the *&% on with telling good stories so that creators don't have to constantly be jumping through hoops for the next year trying to avoid the relationships and backstories that have defined these characters for decades.

[Tenzel Kim]

Reading the posts following Lazarus Contract's piss-poor reception, you can tell Priest feels stung by how little love it's gotten. Unfortunately, it seems like he's taking the wrong lessons from it, thinking that people just want Damian to be super well-adjusted and OG Wally to have a perfect life, which is completely missing the point of what disappointed fans, but at least he's listening.

However, his comments do seem to indicate pretty strongly that the end game of Rebirth is a more complete restoration of DC's history, including the New Teen Titans. He's also as frustrated as I am for why DC feels the need to waste so much time sorting out its continuity. Why does Rebirth have to be stretched out over two years when it could easily be done in six issues or less.

I continue to be astonished by how little forward progress we've made since DC Universe Rebirth #1. Just get over with it already, establish whatever the new "greatest hits" history is going to be, and move the *&% on with telling good stories so that creators don't have to constantly be jumping through hoops for the next year trying to avoid the relationships and backstories that have defined these characters for decades.

Well, honestly it shouldn't be that hard avoiding the backstories. Just concentrate on the present until you are actually ready to do really get on with the Rebirth mystery. Doing it at different speeds is not helping. Having Superman regain much of his pre-Flashpoint history but at the same time keeping the new Justice League origin, but having Superman and Batman meet Wonder Woman before that story (as seen in her annual) and at the same time not allowing the Titans history to be restored (at least not yet), despite adding clues that it might be (such as showing Jerico in his old costume) is not the best way to do it.

If the plan is to reinstate a lot of the pre-Flashpoint continuity work out how you want to explain the New 52 that is being kept, and try to refrain from showing flashbacks to events taking place before the New 52 began. Don't show the New 52 version of the original Teen Titans until you are ready to do it right and if you do it make it vague like when we saw Wally suddenly remembering a different setup in the New 52 universe than what he was used to like in the Rebirth special. This showed us that something was not how it was supposed to be, and that mystery should remain, but they shouldn't have gone ahead with showing the new version of old events unless that is what they are planning on keeping. And IF that is what they plan on keeping showing it now, when the final story is months away is a bad call as it only adds to the confusion.

One thing that could have been interesting to show in the Lazarus Contract Special now that they DID decide to throw in a new version of the old events was Deathstroke actually seeing glimpses of the old continuity and possibly even other Hypertime realities when he was in the Speed Force. They could even have used this to help explain why Deathstroke decided to quit, by using the firewall idea Priest is talking about to show that Grant's death is a fixed event that is a constant in all realities.

[Tenzel Kim]

That, coupled with Ryan's statement from last issue of JLA, and its looking more and more like that incarnation of the League might be back in continuity now. So....the history of the League is looking more and more like a jumbled mess. Are we sure Cyborg is still a founder in current continuity?

Well, we now know that Superman and Batman knew each other before that first Justice League arc and had met Wonder Woman so some thing have to have changed. Why not simply change it so that he was a founding member of this incarnation of the Justice League? AND make sure that his inclusion in it actually matters instead of simply using him as their personal boom tube and portable google search engine.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

So, the latest issue of Batman makes reference to his first meeting with Catwoman being the same as their original encounter in Batman #1 from 1940, not the retconned first meeting from Miller's Year One.

For my money, this is further evidence that we're not going to get a straight up return of the Pre-Flashpoint history, but a combination of all eras from across various media, much like what was done with Superman Reborn and the Justice League's history in The Button.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

So, the latest issue of Batman makes reference to his first meeting with Catwoman being the same as their original encounter in Batman #1 from 1940, not the retconned first meeting from Miller's Year One.

Catwoman remembers it as Year One. They have a disagreement about it. Anyway, those two meetings could actually be reconciled.

[The Darknight Detective]

Catwoman remembers it as Year One. They have a disagreement about it. Anyway, those two meetings could actually be reconciled.

It may be possible, but I can't see them being reconciled easily.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It may be possible, but I can't see them being reconciled easily.

Bruce first meets Selina on the streets as in Year One before she becomes Catwoman. Later, after YO and when she's Catwoman, he stops her from stealing that diamond as in Batman #1 but does not recognize her from before on the street as she's grown her hair out. Plus, she wasn't wearing her Catwoman outfit in that appearance and was disguised as an old woman.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Bruce first meets Selina on the streets as in Year One before she becomes Catwoman. Later, after YO and when she's Catwoman, he stops her from stealing that diamond as in Batman #1 but does not recognize her from before on the street as she's grown her hair out. Plus, she wasn't wearing her Catwoman outfit in that appearance and was disguised as an old woman.

That works for me. You're right that the disagreement between them about how they met is very telling. Could be a reference to time still being in flux, though...

[upgrayedd]

so.... Superman's red trunks.....Action 1000

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

so.... Superman's red trunks.....Action 1000

Did somebody call a White Lantern?

Lol. Yeah, I've neglected to update this thread for some time because there's just a lot that's worked its way back into continuity, from Tim Drake being Robin again to Martian Manhunter potentially getting his JL founding status back. It was too hard to keep up.