Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[sustainentropy]

At this point its difficult to predict precisely what DC is doing. But I do feel that pre-Flashpoint returning is going to be more than just adding some pre-Flashpoint elements to the New 52 continuity.

The universe we'll finally end up with will almost certainly not be any of the pre-Flashpoint continuities in their entirety...but it will certainly be a lot more like the pre-Flashpoint canon than the New 52...except with the New 52 stuff, for the most part, having happened.

Look, at the end of all this, we're going to end up with a world where Clark and Lois are married, where Wally was once Kid Flash and is now a Flash, where there are at least two distinct 'generations' of Teen Titans, where the JSA were once active in WW2 and have returned to the present-day in some form, where Wonder Woman was born of clay and where Jason met Batman while stealing the wheels of the Batmobile. Among other things. Some specific details may vary, some stories may no longer be canon (even if elements from those stories are reintroduced as canon in new stories), but broadly the look and 'feel' of the DCU will be more akin to pre-Flashpoint than anything else.

In fact, one might argue that the Rebirth universe will be the pre-Flashpoint DCU 'soft-booted' in much the way Batman was for the New 52. The broad milestone events mostly happened, some specific stories from the previous canon will continue to be referred to, and the overall tone and feel of the franchise will mostly stay the same. But there will be retcons and a few radical changes/developments as well to keep things fresh.

I agree with your point about it being 'soft-booted', I think that's a likely scenario. Dan DiDio actually compared it to his time working on Infinite Crisis, which in a similar way 'soft-booted' elements into the pre-Flashpoint universe.

Also though it's being achieved through retcons to the New 52 continuity, so I think everyone is right in a way, and I think that's a conscious decision on DC's part to not to drive anyone away by doing a hard reset. Personally I'm looking forward to having the extended timeline in there. The 5 year timeline was way too constrictive.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Another thing worth mentioning: In the most recent issue of Rucka's Wonder Woman, its been revealed that there "were no children" on Themyscira and that Diana was the only one. This seemingly goes against what Azzarello established in his run and is more in line with the Perez origin. What do you guys think about this?

[upgrayedd]

I think it is getting to be "New 52" optional with the editors. They are going to let a writer just do a good story and skip the whole New 52 version if they want. Like in Doom Patrol, there is no mention of Geof Johns version of New 52 Doom Patrol in this books history.

Man this is a great book, especially if you were a fan of the Morrison run.

[Dataweaver]

Wonder Woman and Earth 2 are the closest things in DC Comics at the moment to hard reboots; and even in those two cases, “what happened before in the New 52” is being acknowledged.

In Earth 2's case, we've got a set of “pre-reset survivors” who remember everything that happened before the Casket was opened and whose choices going forward will be informed by those memories. “But Earth 2: Society is ending, to be replaced by a Primary Earth JSA!” Yes, it is. But I'm not convinced that Earth 2 won't be making appearances in JSA: Rebirth; and how this final story arc turns out will determine what Earth 2 will be like when the Primary Earth's JSA encounters it.

In Wonder Woman's case, everything from New 52 still happened; all that's changing is what it means.

I think the Young Animals imprint is getting more flexibility in that regard than the other lines are. I also think that the whole “unification of DC, Vertigo, and Wildstorm” thing is fading away, much as how Vertigo gradually drifted away from DC over the years. Young Animal isn't precisely Vertigo; but it has a similar feel. Either way, my point is that you shouldn't rely too much on what Young Animal does in assessing what Rebirth will do.

[sustainentropy]

In Detective Comics today Batman is shown on his second night on the job wearing his Zero Year suit, so it looks like Zero Year is still the canon origin.

[Midnighter]

I still dont get how the 10 years taken away works. If 10 years had truly been taken away then i dont think jason todd, let alone tim and damian would exist yet as part of the batfamily. Has there been any hint as to how this happened?

It's not a linear ten years taken. It's ten years worth of important moments spread out that were stolen throughout the history of the entire DC universe.

It's not one solid chunk or decade missing. All of the moments stolen simply add up to roughly ten years.

[GlennSimpson]

It's not a linear ten years taken. It's ten years worth of important moments spread out that were stolen throughout the history of the entire DC universe.

It's not one solid chunk or decade missing. All of the moments stolen simply add up to roughly ten years.

Worth noting that this explanation for the "10 years were stolen" comment is just fan theory. The actual discrepancy between Wally saying "10 years were stolen" and the actual changes with the new52 has yet to be officially explained.

Personally, I think Johns just thought to himself "well, we used to have like a 15-year modern super-hero timeline and then we cut it down to 5 years, so I'll say 10 years were stolen" but he forgot about stuff like a different Krypton and the Demon Knights that were changes that took place further back than that.

[bat39]

Worth noting that this explanation for the "10 years were stolen" comment is just fan theory. The actual discrepancy between Wally saying "10 years were stolen" and the actual changes with the new52 has yet to be officially explained.

Personally, I think Johns just thought to himself "well, we used to have like a 15-year modern super-hero timeline and then we cut it down to 5 years, so I'll say 10 years were stolen" but he forgot about stuff like a different Krypton and the Demon Knights that were changes that took place further back than that.

Here's food for thought...

Given that Earth 0 was altered into its New 52 avatar because of Doc Manhattan's tampering...how does that work with other earths in the Multiverse?

Did Manhattan's tampering with Earth 0 somehow change pre-52 Earth 2 into New 52 Earth 2?

Is nuJay basically classic E2 Jay Garrick altered?

And how does this tally with Convergence and COIE supposedly being 'undone'?

[GlennSimpson]

Here's food for thought...

Given that Earth 0 was altered into its New 52 avatar because of Doc Manhattan's tampering...how does that work with other earths in the Multiverse?

Did Manhattan's tampering with Earth 0 somehow change pre-52 Earth 2 into New 52 Earth 2?

Is nuJay basically classic E2 Jay Garrick altered?

And how does this tally with Convergence and COIE supposedly being 'undone'?

In my fan theory, the notion that Earth 0 is the lynchpin for the whole thing is still in effect, so changes to Earth 0 would reflect out to the others. Which is what we saw - the 52 Earths before Flashpoint are different from the 52 after (to the extent that we knew them before)

I personally think none of this has anything to do with Convergence.

[cranger]

Worth noting that this explanation for the "10 years were stolen" comment is just fan theory. The actual discrepancy between Wally saying "10 years were stolen" and the actual changes with the new52 has yet to be officially explained.

Personally, I think Johns just thought to himself "well, we used to have like a 15-year modern super-hero timeline and then we cut it down to 5 years, so I'll say 10 years were stolen" but he forgot about stuff like a different Krypton and the Demon Knights that were changes that took place further back than that.

I have no doubt the "10 Years" really just came to be for that reason as well, but at the same time I think the explanation that those moments were stolen while the timeline was still being 'restored' could cause ripples throughout time as reality had to adjust to fit back together.

That and the fact that, as I mentioned in this thread before, without anything written in the books throwing this out yet, Pandora still merged three timelines. All Rebirth does is say it was not her changes that resulted in the loss of legacies, friendships, experience, etc etc. So anything that does not make sense as a change by 'Dr Manhattan' is still a change by Pandora.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I think the Young Animals imprint is getting more flexibility in that regard than the other lines are. I also think that the whole “unification of DC, Vertigo, and Wildstorm” thing is fading away, much as how Vertigo gradually drifted away from DC over the years. Young Animal isn't precisely Vertigo; but it has a similar feel. Either way, my point is that you shouldn't rely too much on what Young Animal does in assessing what Rebirth will do.

Last I saw, though, Doom Patrol was in-universe. I don't think there's anything to suggest that its not.

[cranger]

Last I saw, though, Doom Patrol was in-universe. I don't think there's anything to suggest that its not.

It certainly is in-universe, but at the same time it was also explicitly given much more lee-way to do whatever they want or need to tell the stories they want to tell. I think Dataweaver is just saying do not take anything in the YA line to be attempting to explain or expand the Rebirth story, it is just it's own thing that is taking advantage of Rebirth to bring in a different segment of readers without being tied down by past continuity.

[Dataweaver]

Worth noting that this explanation for the "10 years were stolen" comment is just fan theory. The actual discrepancy between Wally saying "10 years were stolen" and the actual changes with the new52 has yet to be officially explained.

If you include Geoff Johns among the fans, then yes.

One of my first goals was to break that brick wall down with a giant hammer. In doing that, my core idea was that somebody stole moments from the DCU, and it equates to about 10 years. In the book, Wally says that, but it wasn't just [any] ten years — it was the moments where the characters started to bond. Whatever moments those were, whatever stories those were, they were extracted. And that's why the characters became cold and distant from one another, because they no longer had that history.

For me, that allowed me to wrap my head around why the characters were younger, why they had no emotional ties, but also say that it was still fighting to come back through.

— Geoff Johns, Hollywood Reporter interview concurrent with the release of DCU Rebirth

In my fan theory, the notion that Earth 0 is the lynchpin for the whole thing is still in effect, so changes to Earth 0 would reflect out to the others. Which is what we saw - the 52 Earths before Flashpoint are different from the 52 after (to the extent that we knew them before)

I'll have to dig up the interview to be sure; but I seem to recall Morrison confirming this.

I personally think none of this has anything to do with Convergence.

Superman: Rebirth is a follow-up to Superman: Lois and Clark, which in turn is a follow-up to Convergence: Superman and Convergence #8. At the very least, the Superman stuff has something to do with Convergence.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It certainly is in-universe, but at the same time it was also explicitly given much more lee-way to do whatever they want or need to tell the stories they want to tell. I think Dataweaver is just saying do not take anything in the YA line to be attempting to explain or expand the Rebirth story, it is just it's own thing that is taking advantage of Rebirth to bring in a different segment of readers without being tied down by past continuity.

I understand that completely, but the fact still remains that it is still in the same universe that all the New 52 stuff and all of the Rebirth stuff is in as well. On top of that, it is a direct continuation of the Doom Patrol from before Flashpoint. So, it at least shows that the attitude of the editorial has changed: that they now welcome Pre-Flashpoint continuity to be referenced and confirmed as canon, if not actively endorsing it. We're seeing that all throughout the line, most notably with Superman.

[GlennSimpson]

If you include Geoff Johns among the fans, then yes.

One of my first goals was to break that brick wall down with a giant hammer. In doing that, my core idea was that somebody stole moments from the DCU, and it equates to about 10 years. In the book, Wally says that, but it wasn't just [any] ten years — it was the moments where the characters started to bond. Whatever moments those were, whatever stories those were, they were extracted. And that's why the characters became cold and distant from one another, because they no longer had that history.

For me, that allowed me to wrap my head around why the characters were younger, why they had no emotional ties, but also say that it was still fighting to come back through.

— Geoff Johns, Hollywood Reporter interview concurrent with the release of DCU Rebirth

I'll have to dig up the interview to be sure; but I seem to recall Morrison confirming this.

Superman: Rebirth is a follow-up to Superman: Lois and Clark, which in turn is a follow-up to Convergence: Superman and Convergence #8. At the very least, the Superman stuff has something to do with Convergence.

Fair enough on the 10 years, although I'll reverse my statement and say that was a dumbass way to express what happened, as really the 10 year cumulative amount is really irrelevant. Saying specifically 10 years is a distracting way to get that across. Also, his statement still seems to be referring to moments in the lives of the modern heroes, not things like Krypton and the Demon Knights. But whatever.

But as for Convergence, I was really speaking more on a macro level, regarding the overall timeline changes.