Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[colonyofcells]

I would guess that the sales of new 52 superman must've been really bad to justify the rebirth retroboot back to the pre flashpoint superman. Geoff Johns seems to have a fondness for retroboots since he also did a retroboot for the Legion and got rid of the 3boot (threeboot) Legion that was being written by Jim Shooter.

[GlennSimpson]

I would guess that the sales of new 52 superman must've been really bad to justify the rebirth retroboot back to the pre flashpoint superman. Geoff Johns seems to have a fondness for retroboots since he also did a retroboot for the Legion and got rid of the 3boot (threeboot) Legion that was being written by Jim Shooter.

I think it was simply that they felt like returning the Superman marriage would give some of the lapsed fans the warm feelies, and rather than rush through a courtship and marriage of the new52 versions, this was a faster way to get there.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

For anyone who started reading Superman in those 5 years, it probably is.

The "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman that we have back now, that version of the character first appeared in 1986. A lot of fans at the time did not take kindly to the changes that were made to the character and the mythos. But a lot of other fans who started reading Superman after 1986 feel differently.

Even then, the 1986-2011 Superman had his origin and early days revised in 2003's "Superman: Birthright" and re-revised 2009's "Superman: Secret Origin". With both, some people liked the changes, others didn't.

Well, then imagine what it musta been like in 2011 for everyone who'd been reading for 30 years...

And, as for Pre-Flashpoint Supes not being Pre-Crisis Supes, well, not really. Even Pre-Flaspoint, Superman retained a lot of Pre-Crisis stuff. For example, in JLA #0 from Meltzer's run, we see Clark visiting Batman and Wonder Woman in the Batcave almost immediately after the founding of the League, the origin of which largely tracks from the Silver Age. We also see that this Superman recalls, in Trinity #1, the events of Detective Comics #241 from 1957, a definite PRE-CRISIS story. Also, before Flashpoint, For the Man Who Has Everything was also still canon. There are other examples of Pre-Crisis developments the memory of which Post-Crisis Superman retained. So, Post-Crisis, Superman was still MUCH more similar to his "previous self" than was the case after Flashpoint.

And as for the multiple origin stories, that wasn't a big deal because they were just plugged in at the beginning of Superman's career while the rest of his continuity remained intact. For example, Birthright being published did not erase the Death and Return of Superman saga or Action #775 or any other adventure of Superman taking place after any other version of his origin. New 52 DID erase all those adventures.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It actually is more upsetting to me to lose five years of potential grown to 30. For the simple reason that the 30 years of post-Crisis history had the time to fully flesh out and to grow, and become what it became.

That's exactly why it was so much more of a travesty to erase that than to just erase the New 52 as a separate universe (as DC's now doing). Its because the Pre-FP universe was so fleshed out and so developed that it was enjoyable. The New 52, as its own separate universe, just felt empty and not worth anyone's time. Believe it or not, the thing people LIKE about superhero comics is that these characters have been around for a long time and have history behind them. Part of the reason DC was losing out so much to Marvel was because DC sacrificed their history and the things that made their universe seem full and fleshed out. That's why the tagline of Rebirth is "legacy."

[Sacred Knight]

That's just a fundamental disagreement on our part because I actually believe every 30 years or so give or take a few, both of the big two should reboot. But that's obviously very debateable and has been debated to death. But I still believe that. That the characters have been around a long time was never, and still isn't to this day, part of the appeal to me. If it is to others that's cool, but that's never been a factor to me. I like the concepts, but have never really cared how much history was canon or not, issue numbers, and all that jazz.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's just a fundamental disagreement on our part because I actually believe every 30 years or so give or take a few, both of the big two should reboot. But that's obviously very debateable and has been debated to death. But I still believe that. That the characters have been around a long time was never, and still isn't to this day, part of the appeal to me. If it is to others that's cool, but that's never been a factor to me. I like the concepts, but have never really cared how much history was canon or not, issue numbers, and all that jazz.

Well, obviously, to the majority of fans, it is. Hence Rebirth. And hence why Marvel has never had to reboot and even prides itself that it never has.

[Lee]

Well, then imagine what it musta been like in 2011 for everyone who'd been reading for 30 years...

If you think I'm not aware of that, then you've missed my point entirely.

All I'm saying is, people have the right to be upset about losing "their" Superman, even if he was only around for 5 years. I'm sure people would have been upset if they'd lost the Post-COIE Superman in 1991. A lot of people get most attached to the version they started with and followed the most.

And, as for Pre-Flashpoint Supes not being Pre-Crisis Supes, well, not really. Even Pre-Flaspoint, Superman retained a lot of Pre-Crisis stuff.

I'd say it lost significantly more. Every Superboy story. Every Supergirl story. Every non-green Kryptonite story. Every Krypto story. Every Lex Luthor story. Every Krypton story. Ma and Pa Kent's deaths.

It was huge. If you had been a long-time Superman reader in 1986 you'd probably have been livid.

[Jody Garland]

Solomon Grundy is back with a normal incarnation. That's another..

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If you think I'm not aware of that, then you've missed my point entirely.

All I'm saying is, people have the right to be upset about losing "their" Superman, even if he was only around for 5 years. I'm sure people would have been upset if they'd lost the Post-COIE Superman in 1991. A lot of people get most attached to the version they started with and followed the most.

Well, in my opinion, it still doesn't compare.

I'd say it lost significantly more. Every Superboy story. Every Supergirl story. Every non-green Kryptonite story. Every Krypto story. Every Lex Luthor story. Every Krypton story. Ma and Pa Kent's deaths.

It was huge. If you had been a long-time Superman reader in 1986 you'd probably have been livid.

Actually, not really. Superman #8 (1987) references Superman meeting Superboy Prime as he's fighting a contingent of Legion supporters, so those Superboy stories with the Legion weren't really out-of-the continuity. Superboy Prime also later came back...in a BIG way. Likewise, Krypto then popped up again (as essentially the exact same as he was Pre-Crisis) in Action Comics #591. Several things from Pre-Crisis were also then retconned back into the Superman history, such as the founding of the JLA. So, yes, I would still say that Superman Post-Crisis was closer to his previous counterpart than Post-Flashpoint was to either.

There is also now the development that Convergence COMPLETELY changed the outcome of COIE. So, it can be argued that the CURRENT Superman never had any of his history rewritten post-Crisis.

Post-Flashpoint Superman had pretty much NOTHING in common, with either Pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis. He was significantly younger than both. He had ALL of his history just erased. It wasn't even rewritten. It was just gone. So, pretty much everything that defined Superman from either Pre- or Post-Crisis was just deleted: Supergirl, Superboy (either Prime or Connor Kent), the Silver Age founding of the League and ALL of the League stories from pretty much all of DC's history, For the Man Who Has Everything, Death and Return Saga, Cadmus, Guardian, marriage to Lois, relationship with the New Gods, Cyborg Superman, Action 775 and the Elite, etc. I could keep going, but you get my drift.

[Lhynn]

That's just a fundamental disagreement on our part because I actually believe every 30 years or so give or take a few, both of the big two should reboot.

What? why? what would be the point? Just make new stories with your new characters that youve introduced in those 30 years of publications.

[GlennSimpson]

What? why? what would be the point? Just make new stories with your new characters that youve introduced in those 30 years of publications.

The point(s) of rebooting:

1. Drawing attention to the line.
2. Providing a jumping-on point.
3. Allowing for updates to origins that are founded in things that are dated.
4. Reducing the concept of such a ridiculous amount of events going on in one person's lifetime.
5. Returning the characters to their fundamental i.e. starting positions without having to find in-story excuses. How the heck is Peter Parker going to ever be a hard-on-his-luck photographer for a news organization ever again?

[Lee]

Well, in my opinion, it still doesn't compare.

It's fine for you to think that. But it's mean-spirited to chastise people for missing their version of the character.

Actually, not really. Superman #8 (1987) references Superman meeting Superboy Prime as he's fighting a contingent of Legion supporters, so those Superboy stories with the Legion weren't really out-of-the continuity.

The Clark Kent of the Post-COIE DC Universe never had a career as Superboy. Superboy Prime and "Pocket Universe" Superboy were separate entities. That was a massive continuity change, elimiating hundreds of stories and milestones from Clark Kent's continuity.

So, yes, I would still say that Superman Post-Crisis was closer to his previous counterpart than Post-Flashpoint was to either.

I never said otherwise. Just said that your favoured version was the product of a hard reboot too. Everything you're saying about New 52 Superman now, certain fans were saying about the post-COIE Superman in the late '80s and the '90s.

[Buried Alien]

I always thought it was sort of weird that Superman mistook Pocket Universe Superboy for Superboy-Prime in SUPERMAN # 8 (1987) because, strictly speaking, Post-COIE Superman hadn't met Superboy-Prime at that time (he would many years later in INFINITE CRISIS). It was Pre-COIE Earth-One Superman who had met Superboy-Prime during the Crisis.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sacred Knight]

Well, obviously, to the majority of fans, it is. Hence Rebirth. And hence why Marvel has never had to reboot and even prides itself that it never has.

I'm aware of that, but its pretty irrelevant considering I was voicing my opinion on how I get the most enjoyment out of the stories and how I think the set ups would be best served. If that's a minority opinion, fine, but its still how I feel.

And in my opinion Marvel does have this problem, its had this problem for a long time and is collapsing on itself as we speak.

What? why? what would be the point? Just make new stories with your new characters that youve introduced in those 30 years of publications.

To clean the slate. After so long, and with the fact that "comic book time" moves substantially slower, continuity gets cluttered. No amount of good writing helps that, imo. I care far more about that than proof of longevity. Don't really care whether I'm in the minority or majority or whatever, its just how I feel. If anything to me the problem with the New 52 is that it didn't clean the slate enough. It pick and chose. If you're going to reboot, to me you have to fully commit to it and fully do it. Good stuff will get thrown out, but, you have to realize that's part of it. If you're not prepared for that, don't do it. DC clearly wasn't prepared for that so they probably shouldn't have done it. But if I knew the companies would be willing to go full tilt, a clean reboot every few decades to me is ideal.

[GlennSimpson]

I always thought it was sort of weird that Superman mistook Pocket Universe Superboy for Superboy-Prime in SUPERMAN # 8 (1987) because, strictly speaking, Post-COIE Superman hadn't met Superboy-Prime at that time (he would many years later in INFINITE CRISIS). It was Pre-COIE Earth-One Superman who had met Superboy-Prime during the Crisis.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well there was that weird temporary overlap where some of the characters remembered the pre-Crisis version of the Crisis. Too a while for things to solidify.