Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[Holt]

So, I have no idea how what Scott Snyder is doing with the Will Payton Starman makes any sense given what James Robinson established in his Starman run.

I am going to chalk this up to time shenanigans and ignore it completely unless there’s a specific reason for all this.

Snyder had said he wanted to honor the Starman mythology, but in a way that didn't invalidate what James Robinson did with Jack Knight in the 90s. But the presence of the cosmic staff immediately raises questions, as does the fact that the JSA are forgotten still, aren't they?

The fact that Stargirl was already shown to exist in this continuity and had Jack's cosmic staff seemingly independent of him already muddies the water significantly.

[Midnighter]

So, I have no idea how what Scott Snyder is doing with the Will Payton Starman makes any sense given what James Robinson established in his Starman run.

I am going to chalk this up to time shenanigans and ignore it completely unless there’s a specific reason for all this.

He's ignoring the Will Payton part of Robinson's run entirely. Will's original origin is back in place (thakfully) with a slight dark multiverse twist.

The fact that Stargirl was already shown to exist in this continuity and had Jack's cosmic staff seemingly independent of him already muddies the water significantly.

By this continuity do you mean "Rebirth"?

[Holt]

By this continuity do you mean "Rebirth"?

I say this on the presumption that Geoff Johns' Justice League work is still considered canon after Rebirth. Even Priest's extensive retcon of Doctor Light's New 52 incarnation (bringing back the fact that he was a criminal) still acknowledges that Trinity War happened, for instance.

[Frontier]

I say this on the presumption that Geoff Johns' Justice League work is still considered canon after Rebirth. Even Priest's extensive retcon of Doctor Light's New 52 incarnation (bringing back the fact that he was a criminal) still acknowledges that Trinity War happened, for instance.

And that he had a wife and kids.

[Midnighter]

What people don't seem to understand is that "Rebirth" isn't a continuity. It's a state of flux between continuities.

[Frontier]

What people don't seem to understand is that "Rebirth" isn't a continuity. It's a state of flux between continuities.

Hence all the continued continuity confusion .

[Midnighter]

Hence all the continued continuity confusion .

Well....yes .

[byrd156]

What people don't seem to understand is that "Rebirth" isn't a continuity. It's a state of flux between continuities.

It's been like this since Flashpoint and will continue forever because someone will always knock down the house of cards that DC continuity builds.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

So, Detective 990 had a neat little hint that Zero Year may no longer be Batman's origin (if that wasn't already established anyway with them bringing back the Year One suit). So, anyone remember that Duke played a big role in Zero Year and ever since he was positioned as essentially having been with Bruce since "the beginning"? Yeah, well, in the most recent issue by Robinson, when speaking of Kobra, Duke says that they were "before his time" but a name with which Bruce would likely be familiar.

So, a way of reading that could be him saying he's simply a new addition to the Bat-family and that Bruce has been fighting crime since long before Duke even met him. That would at the very least contradict Zero Year since that was apparently Bruce's first outing as Batman.

[Frontier]

So, Detective 990 had a neat little hint that Zero Year may no longer be Batman's origin (if that wasn't already established anyway with them bringing back the Year One suit). So, anyone remember that Duke played a big role in Zero Year and ever since he was positioned as essentially having been with Bruce since "the beginning"? Yeah, well, in the most recent issue by Robinson, when speaking of Kobra, Duke says that they were "before his time" but a name with which Bruce would likely be familiar.

So, a way of reading that could be him saying he's simply a new addition to the Bat-family and that Bruce has been fighting crime since long before Duke even met him. That would at the very least contradict Zero Year since that was apparently Bruce's first outing as Batman.

That could really mean anything besides contradicting Zero Year, like Kobra was active before Bruce became Batman but he was still aware of them from his travels or that he maybe encountered them one-off in one of his missions for Batman before Riddler caused Zero Year.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That could really mean anything besides contradicting Zero Year, like Kobra was active before Bruce became Batman but he was still aware of them from his travels or that he maybe encountered them one-off in one of his missions for Batman before Riddler caused Zero Year.

Eh, coupled with the fact that the Year One costume is back and that Bruce referred to it as his "first" costume, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it likely means that Zero Year is no longer Batman's origin.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Eh, coupled with the fact that the Year One costume is back and that Bruce referred to it as his "first" costume, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it likely means that Zero Year is no longer Batman's origin.

I don't think it necessarily has to be an either/or situation. They'll probably just roll elements of Zero Year in, along with Year One, and the various other tales of Batman's earliest adventures. They'll just ignore the parts that don't fit, as they've always done, like dated references, fashion and technology. Cutting Duke out of Zero Year shouldn't be a problem.

[Frontier]

Per Joelle Jones' Catwoman #4, a lot of Selina Kyle's Post-Crisis history is now back in-continuity (IE, her sister, Black Mask, etc.).

I don't think it necessarily has to be an either/or situation. They'll probably just roll elements of Zero Year in, along with Year One, and the various other tales of Batman's earliest adventures. They'll just ignore the parts that don't fit, as they've always done, like dated references, fashion and technology. Cutting Duke out of Zero Year shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, the DCU being what it is there was probably some amalgamation of the events of Year One and Zero Year in the current DCU timeline.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah, I suspect that they'll treat them as meeting for the first time (with only Tim knowing the truth), before the conclusion of Doomsday Clock finally lets everyone remember all their past lives again before moving on towards a brighter, less-Watchmen-y, future.

Tim and possibly Bart. He was trapped in the Speed Force, and may well retain pre-Flashpoint memories the same way Wally originally did in DCU: Rebirth.

But yeah; as I've said several times in this thread, it's likely that the pre-Flashpoint continuity will never be fully restored, even if all of its elements eventually get reintroduced: when and how things happened have been permanently changed. Superman Reborn virtually assures that much, by pushing the Death and Return of Superman story arc and the wedding of Lois and Clark back at least a decade. This means, for instance, that Connor Kent was initially a contemporary of Dick Grayson's Robin and possibly the original Teen Titans; I suspect that the upcoming YJ book will reveal that he ended up on Gemworld where time flows differently: for him, it will only have been a few weeks; for everyone else, he'll have gone missing for over a decade.

And I don't think everything's going to be brought back, either: in particular, there are a couple of deaths that DCU Rebirth undid (Ted Kord and Ryan Choi) that I don't see them reverting any time soon. And the odds of restoring Wally's full history have just dropped drastically.

[Dataweaver]

I don't think it necessarily has to be an either/or situation. They'll probably just roll elements of Zero Year in, along with Year One, and the various other tales of Batman's earliest adventures. They'll just ignore the parts that don't fit, as they've always done, like dated references, fashion and technology. Cutting Duke out of Zero Year shouldn't be a problem.

How much of Zero Year actually depends on it being Batman's first appearance? IIRC, the Rebirth remake of the n52 Justice League formation was that it was more of a reunion than a first meeting, and that their first meeting was more like (but still not exactly like) their pre-Flashpoint first meeting.