Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[bat39]

How much of Zero Year actually depends on it being Batman's first appearance? IIRC, the Rebirth remake of the n52 Justice League formation was that it was more of a reunion than a first meeting, and that their first meeting was more like (but still not exactly like) their pre-Flashpoint first meeting.

Well, the first (and arguably best) chapter, 'Secret City' has to be set in Batman's early career because it involves the Red Hood Gang and the Joker's origin.

But quiet frankly, Zero Year occuring at the start of Batman's career is already cemented by "The War of Jokes and Riddles" because of the Riddler.

There is a way for them to sort off co-exist, I suppose...if you fudge some of the specific details. For instance, after Bruce's fight on the streets which Selina witnessed, he didn't run home to Wayne Manor and see the bat crashing through his window. Instead, he spent some more time anonymously fighting crime using disguises until the Red Hood Gang bombed his brownstone and THEN he goes to Wayne Manor and the bat crashes through his window. Also the 'Wild City' part of Zero Year, where the Riddler enacts his grand plan, could happen after the major events of Year One.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Tim and possibly Bart. He was trapped in the Speed Force, and may well retain pre-Flashpoint memories the same way Wally originally did in DCU: Rebirth.

But yeah; as I've said several times in this thread, it's likely that the pre-Flashpoint continuity will never be fully restored, even if all of its elements eventually get reintroduced: when and how things happened have been permanently changed. Superman Reborn virtually assures that much, by pushing the Death and Return of Superman story arc and the wedding of Lois and Clark back at least a decade. This means, for instance, that Connor Kent was initially a contemporary of Dick Grayson's Robin and possibly the original Teen Titans; I suspect that the upcoming YJ book will reveal that he ended up on Gemworld where time flows differently: for him, it will only have been a few weeks; for everyone else, he'll have gone missing for over a decade.

I don't think they need to do anything quite that drastic. There's a lot of wiggle-room in the 15 year timeline the DCU is working with to have a 10 year old Jonathan Kent without breaking everyone else's history. The B13 virus that took over Metropolis for a few years could have artificially aged Jon, or he could have spent a few years with his parents in one of Brainiac's bottled cities. Mxy could have sped up time for him. In Superman's crazy world, there are lots of options.

[bat39]

I don't think they need to do anything quite that drastic. There's a lot of wiggle-room in the 15 year timeline the DCU is working with to have a 10 year old Jonathan Kent without breaking everyone else's history. The B13 virus that took over Metropolis for a few years could have artificially aged Jon, or he could have spent a few years with his parents in one of Brainiac's bottled cities. Mxy could have sped up time for him. In Superman's crazy world, there are lots of options.

Well...that DOES go against the idea of Jon having a normal upbringing and a normal life.

I mean, people like Perry and Jimmy have known Jon since he was born! Wouldn't they find it weird that he's 10 when actually he should be 5?

It actually makes more sense to play around with Connor's age given that he hasn't had anything close to a normal life or uprbringing.

Though I must admit, I never really thought about what the implications of Superman's new timeline on Connor's backstory would be. Yes, if he first became Superboy 10 years ago, then Robin was Dick Grayson, Kid Flash was Wally West and Wonder Girl was Donna Troy. How he would be a contemporary of Tim, Bart and Cassie does became a bit of a problem...

Of course, a simple solution is that Connor physically aged slower and still looked 16 for many years after. He either operated as Superboy for years, or he spent years out of the limelight until he became a founder of Young Justice.

[Dataweaver]

I don't think they need to do anything quite that drastic. There's a lot of wiggle-room in the 15 year timeline the DCU is working with to have a 10 year old Jonathan Kent without breaking everyone else's history. The B13 virus that took over Metropolis for a few years could have artificially aged Jon, or he could have spent a few years with his parents in one of Brainiac's bottled cities. Mxy could have sped up time for him. In Superman's crazy world, there are lots of options.

And you think that's not drastic?

Superman Reborn layed out the new timeline. It included nothing about Jon being artificially aged, only that Lois and Clark spent a good chunk of his childhood living on the farm in order to keep him safe. Not a bottled city, not an alien dimension; a farm. On Earth. Without any Superman craziness. Not even a time loop, like they had prior to Superman Reborn (which would have been child's play to keep in there, but wasn't).

Had I been in charge of the rewrite, I would have kept something not unlike their trip to the Convergence world and subsequent return to the past, eliminating only the multiple timelines aspect of things; I find that it's best not to meddle with the timeline any more than the minimum that you have to. But that's not what they did. And that's unfortunate, because Superboy isn't the only one who's timeline gets messed with because of this: the Green Lantern timeline also takes one heck of a hit, with Emerald Twilight and the debut of Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern being shoved back a decade, too.

And that has some fairly serious impacts of its own, such as Kyle's relationship with Donna now having a ten-year age difference in it (though I don't see his time with the Titans being pushed back a decade; more like Kyle already had a decade of experience by the time Arsenal recruited him to the team where Donna was a Darkstar. And a 33-year-old Kyle dating a 23-year-old Donna is a lot less problematic than a 23-year-old Kyle dating a 13-year-old Donna.) It also messes with John Stewart and Guy Gardner, who lost their ring-wielder status right after Emerald Twilight. I can picture a decade being inserted between Kyle becoming Green Lantern and the events of Zero Hour happening; but that's a decade where the status of all of the Green Lanterns has to be held in a kind of stasis. It's not pretty.

Well...that DOES go against the idea of Jon having a normal upbringing and a normal life.

I mean, people like Perry and Jimmy have known Jon since he was born! Wouldn't they find it weird that he's 10 when actually he should be 5?

It actually makes more sense to play around with Connor's age given that he hasn't had anything close to a normal life or uprbringing.

Though I must admit, I never really thought about what the implications of Superman's new timeline on Connor's backstory would be. Yes, if he first became Superboy 10 years ago, then Robin was Dick Grayson, Kid Flash was Wally West and Wonder Girl was Donna Troy. How he would be a contemporary of Tim, Bart and Cassie does became a bit of a problem...

Of course, a simple solution is that Connor physically aged slower and still looked 16 for many years after. He either operated as Superboy for years, or he spent years out of the limelight until he became a founder of Young Justice.

True enough. However, that would mean that Conner is mentally in his mid-twenties by the time he meets up with YJ: like the second season of the YJ cartoon, he'd still be a contemporary of Dick and Wally in terms of world experience. When I first considered the situation, my thought was to use his time with the Ravers as a way to get him to skip forward a decade. That said:

We also already know a few things about the first story arc in the upcoming YJ: Conner will be found somewhere nobody's expecting him (Bendis said something about what amounts to Bart's first encounter with him in the series, specifically calling out a line of dialogue to the effect of “How can you be here?”), and their first story arc will involve Gemworld. And time does work differently on Gemworld; so I won't be at all surprised if their solution to Conner's age is to say that he disappeared to Gemworld fairly early in his career, spent a few months doing things there, and is about to be found by the others and brought back to the present as both physically and mentally a teen.

[Konja7]

One question, why people assume that Doomsday Clock will return the memories of Pre-Flashpoint continuity?


In Rebirth, the characters seem to have some "forgotten years", which are somewhat similar to Pre-Flashpoint continuity, but these aren't equal.

For example: Wally had all his memories of Pre-Flashpoint (although he was forgetting), but the Titans remember other adventures when they saw Wally (not exactly Pre-Flashpoint story).

I guess the characters may recover their "forgotten years", but I really doubt the Pre-Flashopoint continuity or memories will return.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

One question, why people assume that Doomsday Clock will return the memories of Pre-Flashpoint continuity?


In Rebirth, the characters seem to have some "forgotten years", which are somewhat similar to Pre-Flashpoint continuity, but these aren't equal.

For example: Wally had all his memories of Pre-Flashpoint (although he was forgetting), but the Titans remember other adventures when they saw Wally (not exactly Pre-Flashpoint story).

I guess the characters may recover their "forgotten years", but I really doubt the Pre-Flashopoint continuity or memories will return.

This has already been discussed at length. Basically, the Rebirth one-shot revealed that the timeline that is the "New 52" timeline is really just the Pre-Flashpoint timeline/universe minus the 10 years Manhattan stole. And of course that makes sense, because the universe was one way before Flashpoint and then after Flashpoint it was no longer that way. So, Wally remembers the Pre-Flashpoint memories because he's been outside of time and has seen how the universe is supposed to be. Those within the altered timeline are only capable of remembering what Manhattan's tampering allows them to remember. So, that's why the Titans could only remember those "other adventures."

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't think it necessarily has to be an either/or situation. They'll probably just roll elements of Zero Year in, along with Year One, and the various other tales of Batman's earliest adventures. They'll just ignore the parts that don't fit, as they've always done, like dated references, fashion and technology. Cutting Duke out of Zero Year shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, the DCU being what it is there was probably some amalgamation of the events of Year One and Zero Year in the current DCU timeline.

I'm actually going to agree with Dataweaver here. I think that Zero Year is still an event that happened in some shape or form, but I don't know if it was Batman's origin anymore.

[Konja7]

This has already been discussed at length. Basically, the Rebirth one-shot revealed that the timeline that is the "New 52" timeline is really just the Pre-Flashpoint timeline/universe minus the 10 years Manhattan stole. And of course that makes sense, because the universe was one way before Flashpoint and then after Flashpoint it was no longer that way. So, Wally remembers the Pre-Flashpoint memories because he's been outside of time and has seen how the universe is supposed to be. Those within the altered timeline are only capable of remembering what Manhattan's tampering allows them to remember. So, that's why the Titans could only remember those "other adventures."

That doesn't seem right. The New 52 continuity is not just the Pre-Flashpoint minus 10 years.

For example: The current Kid Flash wouldn't exist without the Flasphoint. So, the past of the characters is still affected.


Is it established that the characters can only remember what Manhattan allow?

The memories of the characters seem to me like a different timeline (from Pre-Flashpoint and New 52).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That doesn't seem right. The New 52 continuity is not just the Pre-Flashpoint minus 10 years.

For example: The current Kid Flash wouldn't exist without the Flasphoint. So, the past of the characters is still affected.


Is it established that the characters can only remember what Manhattan allow?

The memories of the characters seem to me like a different timeline (from Pre-Flashpoint and New 52).

Well, yeah, it is. Just going of the facts, this was the Pre-Flashpoint universe: something that was established in the Rebirth one-shot. Then, Flashpoint happened, and as the universe was reverting back to its "original" state, Manhattan snatched a decade from the timeline. That means that, by necessity, the New 52 was just the Pre-FP universe minus those 10 years and/or with the differences Manhattan caused.

The missing time led the timeline to adapt to those missing events. It like a domino or a ripple effect: you change one event, then that changes everything that relied on that event happening. So, because Manhattan killed off Alan Scott, then there was never a JSA and Courtney Whitmore, despite being Stargirl, was never a member of the modern-day JSA. Similarly, because Manhattan plucked out the Death of Superman saga (at least before Superman Reborn put it back), John Henry Irons aka Steel had to "re-meet" Superman in a way different than how they'd met before Flashpoint. Also, because Manhattan stole the original founding of the JLA, the JLA formed for the "first" time with Cyborg as a member instead of Martian Manhunter (though, now Rebirth may have put that back too).

So, yeah, there are differences, but those differences were caused by Manhattan, as Doomsday Clock has made clear.

Also, I don't see how NuWally is any different from any other new character that's just been introduced. It's been established that he's not the original Wally West. So, how is he any different from a character like Kamala Khan or Riri Williams? Rebirth has basically just made him a new character who happens to share the name of an older character.

[Dataweaver]

Nitpick: the merging of three universes into one as described in Flashpoint isn't contradicted by DCU Rebirth; the latter merely adds Dr. Manhattan's meddling to the former. That is, there's more going on than just Dr. Manhattan's theft of ten years; it's just that that's the part that DCU Rebirth introduced, and the part that it's focusing on.

[Konja7]

Well, yeah, it is. Just going of the facts, this was the Pre-Flashpoint universe: something that was established in the Rebirth one-shot. Then, Flashpoint happened, and as the universe was reverting back to its "original" state, Manhattan snatched a decade from the timeline. That means that, by necessity, the New 52 was just the Pre-FP universe minus those 10 years and/or with the differences Manhattan caused.

The missing time led the timeline to adapt to those missing events. It like a domino or a ripple effect: you change one event, then that changes everything that relied on that event happening. So, because Manhattan killed off Alan Scott, then there was never a JSA and Courtney Whitmore, despite being Stargirl, was never a member of the modern-day JSA. Similarly, because Manhattan plucked out the Death of Superman saga (at least before Superman Reborn put it back), John Henry Irons aka Steel had to "re-meet" Superman in a way different than how they'd met before Flashpoint. Also, because Manhattan stole the original founding of the JLA, the JLA formed for the "first" time with Cyborg as a member instead of Martian Manhunter (though, now Rebirth may have put that back too).

So, yeah, there are differences, but those differences were caused by Manhattan, as Doomsday Clock has made clear.

In itself, that means a new timeline for the "lost years", since the events are different.

I doubt Pre-Flashpoint timeline (or memories) will return. It's seems more likely the characters will remember the "lost years" (which will be somewhat similar to Pre-Flaspoint timeline, but not equal) in the new timeline

Not to mention that other things (like the fusion of three universes) happened in the Flashpoint.

Also, I don't see how NuWally is any different from any other new character that's just been introduced. It's been established that he's not the original Wally West. So, how is he any different from a character like Kamala Khan or Riri Williams? Rebirth has basically just made him a new character who happens to share the name of an older character.

NuWally had mentioned in Flash 51 that he only exist, because the Flashpoint happened. Then, I guess he's one of the differences created by Manhattan.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well...that DOES go against the idea of Jon having a normal upbringing and a normal life.

I mean, people like Perry and Jimmy have known Jon since he was born! Wouldn't they find it weird that he's 10 when actually he should be 5?

Jon's parents are Lois Lane and Superman, who have tried everything in their power to give him a normal upbringing and childhood, but their lives are crazy. Their lives have always been crazy and always will be crazy. Lois & Clark tried their best to insulate Jon from all this, certainly, which is why they moved away from Metropolis to Hamilton when Jon was 5ish (most likely after the time distorting nonsense DC is going to use to explain Jon's fast-forwarded toddler years). However, everyone and everything in the orbit of the World's Greatest Superhero is going to inevitably get pulled into their crazy world of time travel, reboots, aliens, monsters, magic, evil twins, and 5th Dimensional Imps. There's no way that the kind of craziness that is a part of Superman & Lois Lane's adventures stopped for entire decade so Jon could grow up perfectly normal. He grew up as normal as was possible, and was sheltered from as much of that crazy as possible, but, no, Jon Kent's childhood was not totally normal all the time because there's no way that's even remotely plausible.

Since Perry and Jimmy and everyone else at the Daily Planet are also part of Superman's world, they're more than used to the non-stop craziness that comes with it. If everyone in Metropolis was affected by the temporal shenanigans of the B13 virus or trapped as one of Brainiac's bottled cities for a few years, or however they want to do it, then Perry and Jimmy and the rest would have all been involved, thereby explaining why they've known Jon his entire life, because they have.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm actually going to agree with Dataweaver here. I think that Zero Year is still an event that happened in some shape or form, but I don't know if it was Batman's origin anymore.

It's an origin story, just not the origin story. It's just another "early adventures of Batman" story of which there are dozens. I'm not sure if it could be retrofitted to work as something that happened later in Batman's career like the New 52 Justice League origin, which can easily be tweaked into a tale of the League reforming to fight another invasion from Darkseid with Cyborg being merged with a Mother Box as the pivotal event that turned the tide.

No story takes place exactly the same as it did in the original comics after a few years anyway, so I have no problem slapping a big glop of Vaseline on the lens of history that obscures the details and completely ignores others. As long as the broad stokes of what occurred to these characters remains mostly intact, I'm cool with that.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

In itself, that means a new timeline for the "lost years", since the events are different.

I doubt Pre-Flashpoint timeline (or memories) will return. It's seems more likely the characters will remember the "lost years" (which will be somewhat similar to Pre-Flaspoint timeline, but not equal) in the new timeline

Not to mention that other things (like the fusion of three universes) happened in the Flashpoint.


NuWally had mentioned in Flash 51 that he only exist, because the Flashpoint happened. Then, I guess he's one of the differences created by Manhattan.

I don't believe the current or future DCU will be the Pre-Flashpoint continuity. It will be based upon it, but with some changes, just like the Post-Zero Hour continuity was based upon the Post-Crisis continuity, but with some changes, which was in turn based upon the Pre-Crisis continuity, but with the destruction of the Multiverse eliminating the existence of counterparts and rebooting Superman, and Wonder Woman.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

And you think that's not drastic?

Superman Reborn layed out the new timeline. It included nothing about Jon being artificially aged, only that Lois and Clark spent a good chunk of his childhood living on the farm in order to keep him safe. Not a bottled city, not an alien dimension; a farm. On Earth. Without any Superman craziness. Not even a time loop, like they had prior to Superman Reborn (which would have been child's play to keep in there, but wasn't).

Just because Jurgens didn't specifically bring it up, doesn't mean it didn't happen. These are superhero comics after all

If the B13 virus speeding up time in Metropolis (or whatever else) happened prior to moving to Hamilton when Jon was 5ish, that would track perfectly with everything already laid out. It wouldn't change anything about his childhood on the farm. Any Superman-level craziness that DC inevitably uses to get Jon out of his toddler years faster than normal won't need to affect his relatively peaceful upbringing in Hamilton at all. In fact, whatever retcon they use to explain retconning Jon into DCU history could be used as the impetus for Lois & Clark for leaving Metropolis to live in the quieter, more out of the way, Hamilton.

Otherwise, Jon's birth pushing everything pre-Death of Superman to a decade ago will screw up everyone else's timelines. After all the mess they caused with Wonder Woman and Hawkworld, I don't think DC is looking to repeat those same mistakes again.