Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I can imagine them confirming that characters wore classic costumes in the past via flashbacks. Even there though it'll be hard to know for sure until Rebirth is finished and the timeline settled, and that's still only a little less than two years away. But either way in the present they'll keep the more modern looks, more than likely. Trunks, for instance, are never coming back as a present-day look for anyone.

I agree. But I see trunks being referenced as having been worn in the past by the characters. Batman's for example are probably going to pop up in a flashback of him in his class yellow-oval suit. We already KNOW that the current Superman wore his trunks in the past. And, well, Flash and GL never even had trunks to begin with, so it doesn't really matter if they show up (but we've already seen THEIR classic looks return in flashbacks). We might also see Wonder Woman in her classic garb later on (established as being a look she sported for a while).

[KoriandrJean]

I'm hoping that Wonder Woman's outfit gets modernized to having pants - soon!

[ComicFan70]

Wonder Woman - no pants. Didn't work for the tv pilot (writing of that pilot didn't help either), and didn't work for her last book before this reboot IMO of course.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I totally forgot this one:

In Wonder Woman, Barbara Ann Minerva (aka Cheetah) basically gets her old origin back. Remember when she popped up in the New 52 Justice League, Johns cast her as a con woman who had had multiple different identities? Now, she's just plain old Barbara Minerva, British archaeologist, again. Plus, instead of being possessed by the Goddess of the Hunt because of being cut by the Amazonian dagger (the New 52 origin), her becoming Cheetah is once again the product of her being cursed by the plant god Urkartaga (the pre-Flashpoint origin).

Okay, guys. From now on, my OP will serve as a master list of all the instances of Pre-FP continuity reasserting itself in the DCU. PLEASE, read through it and tell me if you see that there's anything I've missed. Post it here with my username and I'll add it to the list.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm aware of that, but its pretty irrelevant considering I was voicing my opinion on how I get the most enjoyment out of the stories and how I think the set ups would be best served. If that's a minority opinion, fine, but its still how I feel.

Fair enough

And in my opinion Marvel does have this problem, its had this problem for a long time and is collapsing on itself as we speak.

Uh, what problem? Marvel has been on top for how long, now? And during the height of the New 52, Marvel had perhaps twice the market share that DC had. And you know what fans usually cite as one of the reasons? The fact that the stories being told today at Marvel are being told in the same timeline that stretches all the way back to Fantastic Four #1. It imbues a sense of legacy and consistency in the universe. Fans like that. And, more importantly, it AVOIDS the confusion that's caused by multiple versions and iterations and histories of a single character.

In fact, DC had to start acting more like Marvel to take the top spot for the last several months (although Marvel recently took that spot back).

I don't see Marvel collapsing in on itself. Its doing just fine. Even if Rebirth has been doing great so far, I would still rather take Axel Alonso over Dan Didio or Bob Harras ANY day of the week.

If the New 52 taught us anything, its that reboots just don't work (COIE even caused several problems that still impacted the DCU for decades after and it wasn't as extreme as the New 52). Marvel learned that lesson during Heroes Reborn and they went back. DC needs to follow suit. Rebirth is popular because it signals them doing that.

[Koriand'r]

I'm hoping that Wonder Woman's outfit gets modernized to having pants - soon!

Wonder Woman is a classically trained warrior not a yoga instructor.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

This may be a bit more subtle of an example, but in the most recent issue of Nightwing, when Clark takes Dick to Blüdhaven in his dream scape in order to give him a more "familiar setting" to fight against Dr. Destiny, it actually ends up, well, working. This is even though Dick has apparently "never been there before." That experience then inspires to Dick to now go to Blüdhaven, which is obviously set up for the next arc. So, could this be the beginnings of Dick actually remembering his life in Blüdhaven?? Should it go on the master list?

[cranger]

This may be a bit more subtle of an example, but in the most recent issue of Nightwing, when Clark takes Dick to Blüdhaven in his dream scape in order to give him a more "familiar setting" to fight against Dr. Destiny, it actually ends up, well, working. This is even though Dick has apparently "never been there before." That experience then inspires to Dick to now go to Blüdhaven, which is obviously set up for the next arc. So, could this be the beginnings of Dick actually remembering his life in Blüdhaven?? Should it go on the master list?

I don't think this has anything to do with Dick remembering something that never happened to him unless they somehow do an arc where it is shown he forgot about some New 52 experience there. I think this is just about doing something new using that setting, just like Green Arrow and Black Canary is new, not them remembering anything, and whether there is some deep connection, something that all characters feel to the pre-Flashpoint reality (as kind of hinted at in Rebirth #1), this just has more to do with him needing to find something in his life to shake whatever doubts he is having about life.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't think this has anything to do with Dick remembering something that never happened to him unless they somehow do an arc where it is shown he forgot about some New 52 experience there. I think this is just about doing something new using that setting, just like Green Arrow and Black Canary is new, not them remembering anything, and whether there is some deep connection, something that all characters feel to the pre-Flashpoint reality (as kind of hinted at in Rebirth #1), this just has more to do with him needing to find something in his life to shake whatever doubts he is having about life.

I don't feel like this can or should be so easily dismissed, though. Superman says that he takes Nightwing to Blüdhaven in order to make him feel comfortable and because it is somewhere he feels safe. Dick says he's never been there before, but then says to Superman "you're right! Coming to Blüd did the trick!" So...how can Nightwing feel comfortable and familiar with a place he's apparently never been?? The only answer I can think of is that he has been there before, but has forgotten.

After all, the Rebirth one shot basically established that this is the same exact universe as the Pre-Flashpoint universe. Somebody has just been messing with time. Superman is unaware of this as of now, but this is his Dick Grayson. The same one who did strike out and go to Blüdhaven. He's just forgotten that he did because those experiences are within the 10 years that were snatched. However, his connection to the city (even though "he's never been there") is still felt. Its like a muscle memory. And I think its a signal that Dick's memories of his time in Blüdhaven will be returning once Rebirth wraps up.

It also isn't like Ollie and Dinah. The story there is just of them meeting and getting together. Here its different. This is Dick feeling a connection with a place that apparently it makes no sense for him to be connected to. Its because that Pre-New 52 history is starting to seep through the cracks. Superman doesn't know it but he's starting to play the role that Wolverine played in House of M: reminding all the other characters of their previous lives.

[sustainentropy]

I don't think this has anything to do with Dick remembering something that never happened to him unless they somehow do an arc where it is shown he forgot about some New 52 experience there. I think this is just about doing something new using that setting, just like Green Arrow and Black Canary is new, not them remembering anything, and whether there is some deep connection, something that all characters feel to the pre-Flashpoint reality (as kind of hinted at in Rebirth #1), this just has more to do with him needing to find something in his life to shake whatever doubts he is having about life.

Agreed. It seems to feel right to Dick like being with Dinah feels right for Ollie. It's a cool usage of past continuity.

[cranger]

So...how can Nightwing feel comfortable and familiar with a place he's apparently never been?? The only answer I can think of is that he has been there before, but has forgotten.

If there was something about the place that appealed to him pre-FP, that would still appeal to him. However, the real answer is that Dick is saying that stuff sucks for whatever reason, and Clark is telling him if he can dream about it, he can do it. Being in the new setting allows him to not be trapped in his crappy feelings. It was taking him out of a place he was stuck in that did the trick.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If there was something about the place that appealed to him pre-FP, that would still appeal to him. However, the real answer is that Dick is saying that stuff sucks for whatever reason, and Clark is telling him if he can dream about it, he can do it. Being in the new setting allows him to not be trapped in his crappy feelings. It was taking him out of a place he was stuck in that did the trick.

Yeah, I don't know if I read it that way or if that's what Seeley was communicating. Superman specifically says that he needs to take Dick somewhere he feels safe and comfortable and somewhere where he's in his element. How can Dick feel safe and in his element in a city to which he's never been UNLESS he on some level recognizes it because he has been there before?? He recognizes Blüdhaven because he is the same Dick Grayson who did go there and made a name for himself there. He just doesn't know it yet because of Dr. Manhattan's time-shennanigans.

[cranger]

Yeah, I don't know if I read it that way or if that's what Seeley was communicating. Superman specifically says that he needs to take Dick somewhere he feels safe and comfortable and somewhere where he's in his element. How can Dick feel safe and in his element in a city to which he's never been UNLESS he on some level recognizes it because he has been there before?? He recognizes Blüdhaven because he is the same Dick Grayson who did go there and made a name for himself there. He just doesn't know it yet because of Dr. Manhattan's time-shennanigans.

I had to reread this again, and admit I am confusing two parts, however I am very sure Dick never says he recognizes Bludhaven (in fact, he is very explicit in not recognizing it at all.)

Retracting my previous point, a little, it should be noted that Clark takes him somewhere he is more suited for fighting. It could be any sort of city setting that was not a beach volley ball match, and Gotham would have worked just as well, but Clark thought of Bludhaven and that is just convenient, as it sets a new direction for Dick, and it is absolutely not because it is triggering some memories.

What I was confusing was how Clark inspired Dick to find his strength later in the fight, by thinking of endless possibilities, which also is a factor in leading Dick off in a new direction.

This is not to say that I don't think the characters have some weird draw to these pre-FP elements, that some things are part of their nature and that nature might be fighting against the changes made by Dr. Manhattan, and that the presence of Clark and the journeys of Wally may be sparking these, that is certainly somewhere the stories may go, but as it is now there is nothing in this story that suggests Dick is going to start remembering things from another reality.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I had to reread this again, and admit I am confusing two parts, however I am very sure Dick never says he recognizes Bludhaven (in fact, he is very explicit in not recognizing it at all.)

Retracting my previous point, a little, it should be noted that Clark takes him somewhere he is more suited for fighting. It could be any sort of city setting that was not a beach volley ball match, and Gotham would have worked just as well, but Clark thought of Bludhaven and that is just convenient, as it sets a new direction for Dick, and it is absolutely not because it is triggering some memories.

What I was confusing was how Clark inspired Dick to find his strength later in the fight, by thinking of endless possibilities, which also is a factor in leading Dick off in a new direction.

I know that Dick says he "doesn't know" it, but again that's because Dr. Manhattan. Clark takes him there because the "Dick of his world" would have found that place familiar and safe. And guess what? Dick finds it familiar and safe and he's able to open up and fight back because he feels in his element. In Blüdhaven. He wouldn't have felt that if he hadn't in some sense been connected to it. This is the Pre-Flashpoint status quo reasserting itself. Dick feels the connection to Blüdhaven because he's "been" there before, even if he doesn't know it. Its like House of M.

Would Gotham have worked as well? Yes. But that's because Dick is familiar with Gotham. Blüdhaven worked because on some level, Dick is familiar with the city.

This is not to say that I don't think the characters have some weird draw to these pre-FP elements, that some things are part of their nature and that nature might be fighting against the changes made by Dr. Manhattan, and that the presence of Clark and the journeys of Wally may be sparking these, that is certainly somewhere the stories may go, but as it is now there is nothing in this story that suggests Dick is going to start remembering things from another reality.

That's what I'm saying. Clark and Wally are serving as "reminders" in a way. Also, its not "another reality." Its the same reality. Same EXACT timeline. A few years have been taken, however. Dick's time in Blüdhaven is among those years. However, I think Clark and Wally's presence are allowing some of those memories to slip through the cracks. Again, its like House of M.

[cranger]

That's what I'm saying. Clark and Wally are serving as "reminders" in a way. Also, its not "another reality." Its the same reality. Same EXACT timeline. A few years have been taken, however. Dick's time in Blüdhaven is among those years. However, I think Clark and Wally's presence are allowing some of those memories to slip through the cracks. Again, its like House of M.

I agree this is the same "DC Universe", although I have held that view since New 52 started, however it is a different reality in the sense that reality only includes stuff that actually happened. Bludhaven never happened for Dick, not historically, not in reality as it is now.

Other than Wally literally being so deep in the Speed Force that he was outside time/space/everything and witnessed the previous histories he existed in, no one has had a single pre-FP memory return (in fact, Wally's memories are vanishing.) There is no reason to think that any memories are coming back here, nor is there any reason to believe that Bludhaven will become part of Dicks current history, which is what I thought was the type of thing this thread was documenting, i.e. retcons to New 52 stories by writers to change them to match pre-FP in an effort to restore things readers wanted.