Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I agree this is the same "DC Universe", although I have held that view since New 52 started, however it is a different reality in the sense that reality only includes stuff that actually happened. Bludhaven never happened for Dick, not historically, not in reality as it is now.

Rebirth has established that the New 52 is just an incomplete version of the Pre-Flashpoint DC Universe. So, New 52 + the missing 10 years = Pre-Flashpoint.

Superman proves this, as this is HIS world and his universe and he remembers things exactly as they were pre-Flashpoint. Wally also proves this, as he has retained his memories of the Pre-Flashpoint universe and when he comes back he says "our lives were different before the Flashpoint" and points to the stolen 10 years as the reason for the changes. So, Blüdhaven technically did happen for Dick. In this timeline. But this timeline is an incomplete timeline because its had something stolen from it. The New 52 timeline is like a train track with two-thirds of the track missing. It'll only be complete once that two-thirds is put back.

Other than Wally literally being so deep in the Speed Force that he was outside time/space/everything and witnessed the previous histories he existed in, no one has had a single pre-FP memory return (in fact, Wally's memories are vanishing.) There is no reason to think that any memories are coming back here, nor is there any reason to believe that Bludhaven will become part of Dicks current history, which is what I thought was the type of thing this thread was documenting, i.e. retcons to New 52 stories by writers to change them to match pre-FP in an effort to restore things readers wanted.

Yeah there is. The entire "Rebirth mystery" as its been dubbed has been about the fate of those missing 10 years and who took them. Barry, Bruce, and Wally know that reality right now is not as it should be. And they're on the case to try and figure out what's happened. Also, Wally has retained his memories. He remembers his wife and his kids, he remembers Barry and Iris's marriage, he also remembers his own relationship with Iris, even though Iris herself has forgotten him, etc. Also, again, Superman is from this DC Universe and he remembers everything exactly as it was before Flashpoint. And, its established that this Wally West and this Superman are from the same universe (see the solicitation for Titans #7). So, if Wally West is from this universe and retains at least some memories of how things were before Flashpoint and Superman is from the same universe as Wally and retains all memories of how things were before Flashpoint, then there's only one conclusion: Superman is from this universe and the DC Universe should match up with his memories and experiences, meaning that it should match up with (and be) the Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

So, given that conclusion. You really think Rebirth won't end with the DC Universe matching at least a majority of their memories? This isn't some obscure C-lister like Psycho-Pirate we're talking about. This is FLASH and SUPERMAN, two of the A-listers of the DC Universe. There's no way they'll keep Superman (one of DC's flagship heroes) as a "castaway" from another reality.

I get this is confusing, but the reasoning is this: if Superman is from THIS Universe and he remembers things exactly as they were before Flashpoint, well then it means that things as they are now are not their "natural" state. And how long then do you think until they match it up with what he remembers.

Anyway, yeah, this thread is meant to document examples of Pre-FP reality reasserting itself. Wouldn't Dick feeling this innate connection to Blüdhaven even when he's "never been there" qualify?

[cranger]

Anyway, yeah, this thread is meant to document examples of Pre-FP reality reasserting itself. Wouldn't Dick feeling this innate connection to Blüdhaven even when he's "never been there" qualify?

No, at least not without something more concrete. We could just chalk it up to a bleed of memories from Clark while they are linked in the dream state. It could almost be like Dick having a favourite soda pre-FP that he never tried in this altered timeline, and then trying it now and asking why he never tried it before. Characters returning to something that appeals to their personality, perhaps as Ollie and Dinah are meant for each other, is not the same as reality itself returning to some previous state, nor does it retroactively make this part of Dick's past.

[sustainentropy]

I've read a vast number of interviews on the subject of Rebirth and it's purpose, and most (if not all) of them state that Rebirth is about adding classic elements to the existing continuity of the New 52, not going backwards. So it's essentially combining the two continuities.

I suspect when all is said and done, it will be revealed that Superdad has been the real New 52 continuities Superman all along.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I've read a vast number of interviews on the subject of Rebirth and it's purpose, and most (if not all) of them state that Rebirth is about adding classic elements to the existing continuity of the New 52, not going backwards. So it's essentially combining the two continuities.

I suspect when all is said and done, it will be revealed that Superdad has been the real New 52 continuities Superman all along.

http://www.newsarama.com/29368-dc-s-...didio-lee.html

From Jim Lee himself:

Geoff came up with this brilliant story that basically allows us to seat the “New 52” within the continuity that preceded it.

Wally West remembers that it was the Pre-Flashpoint universe that was altered by Dr. Manhattan. Superman remembers the entirety of the Pre-FP timeline. It's more likely that New 52 Superman will be retconned into being a Superman clone or some construct created by Mr. Oz (there's already evidence to support that one).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

No, at least not without something more concrete. We could just chalk it up to a bleed of memories from Clark while they are linked in the dream state. It could almost be like Dick having a favourite soda pre-FP that he never tried in this altered timeline, and then trying it now and asking why he never tried it before. Characters returning to something that appeals to their personality, perhaps as Ollie and Dinah are meant for each other, is not the same as reality itself returning to some previous state, nor does it retroactively make this part of Dick's past.

Except it's not about the appeal of Blüdhaven. It's about feeling familiar with the environment. That shouldn't be possible since Dick's never been there before. UNLESS...it's part of the 10 years that were swiped.

[sustainentropy]

I believe Jim Lee made an error in that interview. He said "continuity" when he should have said "universe". It's the same universe, different continuity. Christopher Priest talks about not retconning, not erasing but rebooting The Judas Contract. Why reboot Deathstrokes origin story along with the origin of the Teen Titans if it's still the pre-Flashpoint continuity and it's going to be the same? It's the same universe as pre-flashpoint, different continuity.

Hear me out: In Final Crisis it's revealed that Barry is in the speed force and it gives him access to his memories pre-crisis, but when he's integrated into post-crisis continuity his history with his parents is different as revealed in Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns. So it's the same Barry, but integrated into the post-crisis world.

Wally's trip into the speed force in the New 52 continuity showed him his rich post-crisis history, and thus showed him all the things that were missing from his history in the New 52 continuity. It also showed him his relationship with Linda back then. Kadabra mentions he wasn't actually supposed to meet Linda yet in this continuity, so Wally's trip to the speed force actually brought that forward in the New 52. When Wally returns he's re-integrated into the New 52 continuity. He recognises post-crisis Superman because he's witnessed his own post-crisis history with Superman.

Johns mentions in an interview that the 10 years that were stolen were specifically moments where the heroes bonded in some way, and that Dr. Manhattan's intention was to remove the heroes close relationships in order to study them. Nowhere does he mention that Doctor Manhattan created this continuity, just that he stole time from it. Presumably if the time hadn't been stolen we would have gotten an updated DC Universe, but with all the legacies and friendships still there between the heroes.

Dan Abnett mentions in an interview that DC used Titans Hunt as a sort of demo run for Rebirth, and what did Titans Hunt do? It returned "secret history" to the New 52 continuity. So Rebirth is returning those 10 years in the form of the "secret history" of the New 52 continuity.

Will that history look a lot like the pre-flashpoint continuity? Yes, as evidenced by the current changes to the line. Some elements of pre-crisis have been reintroduced too though. There are numerous things that haven't changed back or won't be changed back though, like Shazam for instance. In the Rebirth splash page showing all the characters in their new costumes Shazam is updated and with the New 52 era Marvel family.

Not to mention all the changes in race, sexuality etc. Do you think they'll change back to their white straight interpretations at the end of Rebirth?

[Buried Alien]

Hear me out: In Final Crisis it's revealed that Barry is in the speed force and it gives him access to his memories pre-crisis, but when he's integrated into post-crisis continuity his history with his parents is different as revealed in Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns. So it's the same Barry, but integrated into the post-crisis world.

This I've wondered for a few years: when Barry Allen emerged from the Speed Force into the physical universe in FINAL CRISIS, did he return with his original memories of having both his parents alive and well into his adulthood (ultimately outliving him, in fact), or did he return with the new, Reverse Flash-created past in which his mother was murdered and his father imprisoned?

The brief period between FINAL CRISIS and FLASH: REBIRTH (2009) is a bit of a mystery in terms of what was going on with Barry.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[sustainentropy]

This I've wondered for a few years: when Barry Allen emerged from the Speed Force into the physical universe in FINAL CRISIS, did he return with his original memories of having both his parents alive and well into his adulthood (ultimately outliving him, in fact), or did he return with the new, Reverse Flash-created past in which his mother was murdered and his father imprisoned?

The brief period between FINAL CRISIS and FLASH: REBIRTH (2009) is a bit of a mystery in terms of what was going on with Barry.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I seem to remember that the memories of his original parents began to fade as soon as he was integrated into the post-crisis continuity. I could be wrong though. That's what happened when he arrived in the Flashpoint timeline after he went back and stopped it though. I remember him telling Thomas Wayne Batman that he was starting to forget once the timeline had been altered. Plus that's what happened when he entered the New 52. He remembered for a short period of time before they went away.

Considering they're all by Johns I'd assume this was what happened in all three cases.

[Flash Gordon]

Well, obviously, to the majority of fans, it is. Hence Rebirth. And hence why Marvel has never had to reboot and even prides itself that it never has.

Marvel has had more "resets" and "reboots" than I can even count.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I believe Jim Lee made an error in that interview. He said "continuity" when he should have said "universe". It's the same universe, different continuity. Christopher Priest talks about not retconning, not erasing but rebooting The Judas Contract. Why reboot Deathstrokes origin story along with the origin of the Teen Titans if it's still the pre-Flashpoint continuity and it's going to be the same? It's the same universe as pre-flashpoint, different continuity.

Hear me out: In Final Crisis it's revealed that Barry is in the speed force and it gives him access to his memories pre-crisis, but when he's integrated into post-crisis continuity his history with his parents is different as revealed in Flash: Rebirth by Geoff Johns. So it's the same Barry, but integrated into the post-crisis world.

Wally's trip into the speed force in the New 52 continuity showed him his rich post-crisis history, and thus showed him all the things that were missing from his history in the New 52 continuity. It also showed him his relationship with Linda back then. Kadabra mentions he wasn't actually supposed to meet Linda yet in this continuity, so Wally's trip to the speed force actually brought that forward in the New 52. When Wally returns he's re-integrated into the New 52 continuity. He recognises post-crisis Superman because he's witnessed his own post-crisis history with Superman.

Johns mentions in an interview that the 10 years that were stolen were specifically moments where the heroes bonded in some way, and that Dr. Manhattan's intention was to remove the heroes close relationships in order to study them. Nowhere does he mention that Doctor Manhattan created this continuity, just that he stole time from it. Presumably if the time hadn't been stolen we would have gotten an updated DC Universe, but with all the legacies and friendships still there between the heroes.

Dan Abnett mentions in an interview that DC used Titans Hunt as a sort of demo run for Rebirth, and what did Titans Hunt do? It returned "secret history" to the New 52 continuity. So Rebirth is returning those 10 years in the form of the "secret history" of the New 52 continuity.

Will that history look a lot like the pre-flashpoint continuity? Yes, as evidenced by the current changes to the line. Some elements of pre-crisis have been reintroduced too though. There are numerous things that haven't changed back or won't be changed back though, like Shazam for instance. In the Rebirth splash page showing all the characters in their new costumes Shazam is updated and with the New 52 era Marvel family.

Not to mention all the changes in race, sexuality etc. Do you think they'll change back to their white straight interpretations at the end of Rebirth?

A few problems with your hypothesis here:

(1) Judas Contract was neither the origin of the Teen Titans nor was it Deathstroke's origin. Deathstroke's origin was New Teen Titans #2. And that's already been restored, which directly refuted the New 52 (as it showed Grant Wilson alive instead of dead). As for Judas Contract, this is just how DS remembers it Post-Flashpoint, since Cyborg was never "in" the Titans since the 10 years were snatched. However, once the 10 years are restored to the timeline, who's to say Judas Contract won't just be reverted to the way it was originally written.

(2) That "secret history" that Abnett revealed in Titans Hunt was still part of that incomplete "New 52" timeline. However, when Wally came back, he said that there was an entirely separate 10 years on TOP of all that. Think of it this way. That "secret history" from Titans Hunt is already fully revealed. However, the 10 years that were snatched from the timeline were completely and definitively from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. Wally in the Speed Force basically said "I lived this life" all while showing flashbacks to Pre-Flashpoint events and then says "but somebody changed it," which resulted in New 52. In other words, the "Titans Hunt" history is accounted for and the characters remember all of it they can. The 10 years that were stolen are completely separate from it. Wally remembers that their lives were different from what is known by the Titans even with their "Titans Hunt" memories restored.

(3) Barry, after coming back at the end of Final Crisis, never said "something is wrong." Wally has. Wally has flat out said that these lives that the characters are currently living are not their "real" lives or are at least missing the experiences that were there pre-Flashpoint.

(4) One word: Superman. Superman remembers everything exactly as it was before Flashpoint. And Titans #7 shows that he and Wally will recognize each other, which means that this Superman is the Superman of this world, and that this world has been altered by an outside force from how it was as he knew it. It is likely only a matter of time before the world will again match up with his memories. And as for New 52 Superman, its probably going to go one of two ways: (1) New 52 Superman will be revealed as a fake or (2) this is Nuperman, but once he and Lois were pulled out of the time stream, they regained all of their "real" memories and had a son outside of time.

[Flash Gordon]

I'm glad AQUAMAN isn't derailing all the great work done for the characters and concepts since the NEW 52. Mera and Arthur are so great, I have no interest in backpedaling there.

The only thing I can think of is the mention of having fought the Shaggy Man before with the Justice League, but that's easy to justify.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Marvel has had more "resets" and "reboots" than I can even count.

A reboot means that you've wiped history from the slate. Every single story Marvel has ever published as part of its main universe is in continuity. Amazing Fantasy #15 happened the exact same way as it was written in 1962. The Avengers came together in the exact same way as they did in 1963. Secret Wars still happened exactly as published in 1984.

The only exception to that is Peter and MJ's wedding day. And even then, every single Spider-Man story in those 20 years is still in canon, but MJ was simply explained as having been Peter's live-in girlfriend instead of his wife. Its the functional equivalent of them having gotten divorced.

[Flash Gordon]

A reboot means that you've wiped history from the slate. Every single story Marvel has ever published as part of its main universe is in continuity. Amazing Fantasy #15 happened the exact same way as it was written in 1962. The Avengers came together in the exact same way as they did in 1963. Secret Wars still happened exactly as published in 1984.

The only exception to that is Peter and MJ's wedding day. And even then, every single Spider-Man story in those 20 years is still in canon, but MJ was simply explained as having been Peter's live-in girlfriend instead of his wife. Its the functional equivalent of them having gotten divorced.

None of those stories happened the exact same way they were originally published.

Marvel resets itself all the time.

[sustainentropy]

A few problems with your hypothesis here:

(1) Judas Contract was neither the origin of the Teen Titans nor was it Deathstroke's origin. Deathstroke's origin was New Teen Titans #2. And that's already been restored, which directly refuted the New 52 (as it showed Grant Wilson alive instead of dead). As for Judas Contract, this is just how DS remembers it Post-Flashpoint, since Cyborg was never "in" the Titans since the 10 years were snatched. However, once the 10 years are restored to the timeline, who's to say Judas Contract won't just be reverted to the way it was originally written.

(2) That "secret history" that Abnett revealed in Titans Hunt was still part of that incomplete "New 52" timeline. However, when Wally came back, he said that there was an entirely separate 10 years on TOP of all that. Think of it this way. That "secret history" from Titans Hunt is already fully revealed. However, the 10 years that were snatched from the timeline were completely and definitively from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. Wally in the Speed Force basically said "I lived this life" all while showing flashbacks to Pre-Flashpoint events and then says "but somebody changed it," which resulted in New 52. In other words, the "Titans Hunt" history is accounted for and the characters remember all of it they can. The 10 years that were stolen are completely separate from it. Wally remembers that their lives were different from what is known by the Titans even with their "Titans Hunt" memories restored.

(3) Barry, after coming back at the end of Final Crisis, never said "something is wrong." Wally has. Wally has flat out said that these lives that the characters are currently living are not their "real" lives or are at least missing the experiences that were there pre-Flashpoint.

(4) One word: Superman. Superman remembers everything exactly as it was before Flashpoint. And Titans #7 shows that he and Wally will recognize each other, which means that this Superman is the Superman of this world, and that this world has been altered by an outside force from how it was as he knew it. It is likely only a matter of time before the world will again match up with his memories. And as for New 52 Superman, its probably going to go one of two ways: (1) New 52 Superman will be revealed as a fake or (2) this is Nuperman, but once he and Lois were pulled out of the time stream, they regained all of their "real" memories and had a son outside of time.

(1.) Priest's retelling includes the origin of the Teen Titans and the origin of Deathstroke:

"In order for the Deathstroke book to function, I need to tell the definitive, at least post-Rebirth, version of Deathstroke’s origin. Which involves the at the time Teen Titans, so I need to know who was in, who was out, and all that other stuff. So that’ll be the first half of the year, we’re just rebuilding Deathstroke’s cast and establishing Deathstroke, so that’s 1-11. Issue 12 will begin the second arc where it’s retelling that classic story and basically retelling the Titans origin over in “Titans,” and retelling the Deathstroke origin over in Deathstroke. Dan and I are kind of collaborating on it."

That's from the interview on the topic. So they're retelling the origins of a multitude of their biggest characters that will be in place for 18 months? That doesn't make sense.

(2.) Where does it state that there's another ten years on top of that? All Wally says is that 10 years were taken from the beginning of time by Manhattan. It doesn't say when or where they were taken from. Titans Hunt restored the memories they had of being a later version of the team, but as I understand it the history of the original Teen Titans hasn't been restored. In the Titans series no one remembers them for instance.

(3.) Yes, Wally has said there's something wrong. It's in reference to the theft of ten years from the timeline. They're missing ten years of experiences, you're right. You're speculating that they're post-crisis continuity experiences though, when they may not be. Looking at the line as it currently stands, DC is doing exactly what they said they were doing. Boiling their characters down to their most iconic interpretations, from both pre-crisis, post-crisis (Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis) and the New 52.

(4.) I'm not disputing they're real memories, but they're memories of a previous continuity. Yes he and Wally will remember each other because Wally has had access to his memories of this past continuity. I'm not sure how things are going to go with Superman, but I agree Superdad is the Superman of this world, somehow.

You seem very heavily invested in DC going back to pre-Flashpoint when they've stated outright on a number of occasions that that's not what they're doing. Would it bother you if it was a super-continuity that honoured all previous versions, but also embraced the New 52? Would that put you off reading?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

(1.) Priest's retelling includes the origin of the Teen Titans and the origin of Deathstroke:

"In order for the Deathstroke book to function, I need to tell the definitive, at least post-Rebirth, version of Deathstroke’s origin. Which involves the at the time Teen Titans, so I need to know who was in, who was out, and all that other stuff. So that’ll be the first half of the year, we’re just rebuilding Deathstroke’s cast and establishing Deathstroke, so that’s 1-11. Issue 12 will begin the second arc where it’s retelling that classic story and basically retelling the Titans origin over in “Titans,” and retelling the Deathstroke origin over in Deathstroke. Dan and I are kind of collaborating on it."

That's from the interview on the topic. So they're retelling the origins of a multitude of their biggest characters that will be in place for 18 months? That doesn't make sense.

Its basically like when they kept coming out with new origins for Superman before Flashpoint. Superman had like 5 different origins, but they were all plugged in before the rest of the stories that took place in the Pre-Flashpoint timeline, which all remained the same. The Titans also had a retelling of their origin pre-Flashpoint. It, like with Superman, was just plugged in before their other adventures. That's essentially what is happening with Rebirth. The things that are likely to come back are the things like Cyborg being a member and the lion share of the Wolfman/Perez run.

(2.) Where does it state that there's another ten years on top of that? All Wally says is that 10 years were taken from the beginning of time by Manhattan. It doesn't say when or where they were taken from. Titans Hunt didn't actually restore the history of The Titans, it just alluded to time having been taken and alerted the team that this time was taken along with restoring their memories of that time. It's part of the ten years that hasn't been restored yet.

Again, where does it say that it resulted in the New 52? Wally had lived this life, but the updated version of it that took place post-Flashpoint, but was erased from history by Mr. Twister.

Uh, the Rebirth one shot. That's where is definitively says that the 10 years were stolen from the timeline, the PRE-FLASHPOINT timeline. It shows pictures of the Pre-Flashpoint reality and then Barry during Flashpoint and then it says: "But someone outside of time watched it all happen...and when history (the Pre-Flashpoint history) was coming back together, they attacked. As our timeline reformed someone stole 10 years from us." That is from the comic itself. The unambiguous, plain meaning of the comic lays out: Barry creates Flashpoint, then when time is snapping back AFTER Flashpoint, Dr. Manhattan reaches in and takes 10 years. What was time snapping back to if Flashpoint was an event that took place in the Pre-Flashpoint universe??????? This whole "its a separate continuity that Dr. Manhattan took from" is, for lack of a better word, nonsense.

And Titans Hunt was never about restoring history. It was about restoring memories of the history that was ALREADY part of the New 52. The history that needs to be restored is contained within the 10 years taken from the PRE-FLASHPOINT timeline.

Plus, even in the pages of Titans, the other members know that the 10 years is on top of the Titans Hunt and New 52 history that they've recalled ever since reuniting and Wally coming back. Donna has even said at one point "the past was stolen from us...we've all lost so much." That "past" she's talking about is on top of the past remembered in Titans Hunt.

(3.) Yes, Wally has said there's something wrong. It's in reference to the theft of ten years from the timeline. They're missing ten years of experiences, you're right. You're speculating that they're post-crisis continuity experiences though, when they may not be. Looking at the line as it currently stands, DC is doing exactly what they said they were doing. Boiling their characters down to their most iconic interpretations, from both pre-crisis, post-crisis (Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis) and the New 52.

Again, I refer you to the quote above, pulled directly from the pages of the Rebirth one-shot.

(4.) I'm not disputing they're real memories, but they're memories of a previous continuity. Yes he and Wally will remember each other because Wally has had access to his memories of this past continuity. I'm not sure how things are going to go with Superman, but I agree Superdad is the Superman of this world, somehow.

The solicit literally says they are "from the same world." Wally will remember him because Wally is the only one who knows the truth of the current universe: that things aren't the way they're supposed to be. Everybody else remembers New 52 Superman (because Manhattan) but Wally recognizes the real Superman because he's escaped Manhattan's influence.

And they are NOT going to keep Superman as this "refugee" from another universe forever. This is SUPERMAN for crying out loud. Also, I don't see them "editing" Superman's memories for him to forget any of his Pre-Flashpoint life, given that most fans have shown a general distaste for New 52 and the entire reason this Superman is popular is because he is pre-Flashpoint Superman.

You seem very heavily invested in DC going back to pre-Flashpoint when they've stated outright on a number of occasions that that's not what they're doing. Would it bother you if it was a super-continuity that honoured all previous versions, but also embraced the New 52? Would that put you off reading?

They've actually stated that that is exactly what they are doing, hence exactly what Jim Lee said: the New 52 is being seated in the continuity that preceded it. He said "continuity" for a reason. You really think that people like Priest or even Abnett know more about the direction of the company than the co-publisher himself???

At the end of Rebirth, everything from the New 52 that doesn't conflict with Pre-Flashpoint continuity will be folded in as part of the PRE-FLASHPOINT DC Universe.

However, if they didn't go back and restore the Pre-Flashpoint canon (at least a good amount of it), yeah, it would actually put me off reading. It would put a lot of people off reading, as many were discontent with New 52 because it changed too much. The DC Universe didn't feel like the DC Universe and DC now knows that. If they didn't go back, they know that a lot of the people now supporting Rebirth would walk away.