Batgirl and the Birds of Prey #4 Discussion

[RedQueen]

She's Italian. Period. I can guarantee you that we come in every size and colour.

Sorry, I was talking about race not nationality. The fact she's Italian hasn't changed but her racebending is now important in a representation sense. Though my nationality is Australian, I'm also half Algerian, and I say I'm Middle Eastern/Arab as my race but Australian as my nationality and I can pass as a lot of things because of the ambiguity of my looks. But her race being unconfirmed is kind of annoying because it means she can be drawn in a different color. Her nationality may be Italian but she's also a WOC and that's important too.

[millernumber1]

The one thing I'm worried about in terms of Huntress is that the Bensons seem to be making her reject her Catholic faith, instead of struggling with it as Simone, Rucka, and Madison did.

[Frontier]

The one thing I'm worried about in terms of Huntress is that the Bensons seem to be making her reject her Catholic faith, instead of struggling with it as Simone, Rucka, and Madison did.

Yeah that's also something I've been having an issue with to some degree.

I do wish they would address her Catholicism, more then they have been so far, since that's also an integral part of Huntress' character. He faith, and the impact it has on her, is also something that sets her apart from a lot of other DC heroes/characters.

[millernumber1]

Yeah that's also something I've been having an issue with to some degree.

I do wish they would address her Catholicism, more then they have been so far, since that's also an integral part of Huntress' character. He faith, and the impact it has on her, is also something that sets her apart from a lot of other DC heroes/characters.

Yes, a huge part of why I love her as a character. She's not someone with an easy faith, but she does have a sincere one. If she just becomes another lapsed agnostic, it destroys a significant part of what makes her interesting and appealing.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

Seeley and King used to say Helena was specifically Sicilian, IIRC, and I don't know anything about Sicily or Italy but that meant it was possible for her to be dark-skinned without it being weird.

Lately though, probably because there are so many idiots on the internet, but Seeley has started to say that Helena is just half-black.

[Powertool]

Sorry, I was talking about race not nationality. The fact she's Italian hasn't changed but her racebending is now important in a representation sense. Though my nationality is Australian, I'm also half Algerian, and I say I'm Middle Eastern/Arab as my race but Australian as my nationality and I can pass as a lot of things because of the ambiguity of my looks. But her race being unconfirmed is kind of annoying because it means she can be drawn in a different color. Her nationality may be Italian but she's also a WOC and that's important too.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Italy is not and never will be a race-based country like the United States. It just wouldn't make sense, especially in Southern Italy (and therefore Sicily), where three millennia of migrations and conquerors intermarrying with the local populace produced a genetical hodge-podge of Punics, Greeks, Latins, Maghrebi Arabs, French Normans, Southern Germans and Spaniards, making the place a microcosm with no equals in the rest of Europe. In Italy, racial distinctions are almost always trumped by being part of a shared, ultra-millenarian culture and even the most ardent isolationist and xenophobic formations have never advocated ethnic cleansing or segregation (in fact, even the self-proclaimed racists in Italy see segregation as a very dangerous concept). It's a very different world, with very different rules. Even adopting your definition of "person of colour" (and I have to see actual proof that HHelena considers herself as such), a person of colour in Italy doesn't live the same life of a person of colour in the United States and his or her race consciousness works in a different way.

[millernumber1]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Italy is not and never will be a race-based country like the United States. It just wouldn't make sense, especially in Southern Italy (and therefore Sicily), where three millennia of migrations and conquerors intermarrying with the local populace produced a genetical hodge-podge of Punics, Greeks, Latins, Maghrebi Arabs, French Normans, Southern Germans and Spaniards, making the place a microcosm with no equals in the rest of Europe. In Italy, racial distinctions are almost always trumped by being part of a shared, ultra-millenarian culture and even the most ardent isolationist and xenophobic formations have never advocated ethnic cleansing or segregation (in fact, even the self-proclaimed racists in Italy see segregation as a very dangerous concept). It's a very different world, with very different rules. Even adopting your definition of "person of colour" (and I have to see actual proof that HHelena considers herself as such), a person of colour in Italy doesn't live the same life of a person of colour in the United States and his or her race consciousness works in a different way.

Thanks for that - I love to hear this kind of perspective.

[RedQueen]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Italy is not and never will be a race-based country like the United States. It just wouldn't make sense, especially in Southern Italy (and therefore Sicily), where three millennia of migrations and conquerors intermarrying with the local populace produced a genetical hodge-podge of Punics, Greeks, Latins, Maghrebi Arabs, French Normans, Southern Germans and Spaniards, making the place a microcosm with no equals in the rest of Europe. In Italy, racial distinctions are almost always trumped by being part of a shared, ultra-millenarian culture and even the most ardent isolationist and xenophobic formations have never advocated ethnic cleansing or segregation (in fact, even the self-proclaimed racists in Italy see segregation as a very dangerous concept). It's a very different world, with very different rules. Even adopting your definition of "person of colour" (and I have to see actual proof that HHelena considers herself as such), a person of colour in Italy doesn't live the same life of a person of colour in the United States and his or her race consciousness works in a different way.

Very interesting and informative. I'm just very concerned that because Helena used to be drawn as a dark-skinned Italian but now she's being drawn lighter.

[dominus]

Yeah that's also something I've been having an issue with to some degree.

I do wish they would address her Catholicism, more then they have been so far, since that's also an integral part of Huntress' character. He faith, and the impact it has on her, is also something that sets her apart from a lot of other DC heroes/characters.

Yes, a huge part of why I love her as a character. She's not someone with an easy faith, but she does have a sincere one. If she just becomes another lapsed agnostic, it destroys a significant part of what makes her interesting and appealing.

The Punisher is Catholic too.

[Frontier]

The Punisher is Catholic too.

And Daredevil .

[millernumber1]

Well, yes, they're both Catholic-ish depending on the writer, but I'm a DC man. Also I like purple (obviously)

[Powertool]

Very interesting and informative. I'm just very concerned that because Helena used to be drawn as a dark-skinned Italian but now she's being drawn lighter.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the first time that comic book colourists botch or disregard the skin tone of an established non-lily-white character. The examples of Vixen during her tenure in the post OYL Justice League (though mostly limited to a few panels) and Connor Hawke becoming progressively paler with the years come to mind.

[Aahz]

Honestly I would prefer if they would change Helena back to her classical pre flashpoint appearance and design.

[MajorHoy]

from http://www.dccomics.com/comics/batgi...irds-of-prey-4

. . . Batgirl, Black Canary, and Huntress come face-to-face at last with the new Oracle…and unlock a mystery they never saw coming!

Yeah, they come face-to-face with the new Oracle . . . but we the readers don't get to see anything more than the BoP finding Oracle's set-up (without anybody visible when they enter the room).

This is a series that, for me isn't bad . . . but isn't all that great, either. It's just sort of "eh". I want so badly to like it because I generally like the characters / like the premise of butt-kicking women working together, but it hasn't really hooked me yet. And while the change of artists for the issue did result in generally better faces than usual for this book, I wasn't thrilled with the art in general. (Seen better / seen worse.) And as others have mentioned, the "subtle" hiding of the face/head of Helena's mother in all those flashback/memory scenes just screams "SHE'S REALLY NOT DEAD AND SHE'S A VILLAIN THE BIRDS WILL BE FACING SOON!"
(Whether as the new Oracle or as someone else is debatable.)

I'll probably stick with this title for now, but I don't know how long that'll last.

[RedQueen]

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the first time that comic book colourists botch or disregard the skin tone of an established non-lily-white character. The examples of Vixen during her tenure in the post OYL Justice League (though mostly limited to a few panels) and Connor Hawke becoming progressively paler with the years come to mind.

I remember the Connor Hawke stuff now. That also reminds of how some colourists make Storm as pale as Cyclops.