All Star Batman #4

[Aahz]

I think with Jason it's not that they don't take him seriously it's just that like you said they don't quite get the character. Lobdell gets the character hence the reason why he writes him well. Which is even more reason why it makes no sense advocating for writers to use characters they don't a strong grasp on. If Jason was in King's/ Synder's book we'll only get more of the same and that not good for the character. It's not about how many books your in it's about the quality of each appearance.

Problem is just that the writers that don't get him are the ones who write the big events, which are read by much more people than his own book. And if a Batfamily only appears in his own book at is isolated from the rest of the franchise, thats also not good for the character on the long run (if they don't manage to make his series feel relevant in an other way).

And at least the main Batman writer should imo have a good grasp on all the characters.

[dietrich]

Problem is just that the writers that don't get him are the ones who write the big events, which are read by much more people than his own book. And if a Batfamily only appears in his own book at is isolated from the rest of the franchise, thats also not good for the character on the long run (if they don't manage to make his series feel relevant in an other way).

And at least the main Batman writer should imo have a good grasp on all the characters.

To be fair I can understand why some writers struggle with him. He's characterisation/identity is inconsistent. Is he an anti-hero, an all out villain or a good guy? Is he a part of the family? A reluctant part of the family? Does he even want to be a part of the family? He keeps flip flopping.

As a reader I am unclear as to Jason's role within the family and I think this might be the case for some writers.

In an ideal world the main batman writer would have a good grasp on Batman and everything Batman which some would argue includes the family members but generally they don't especially when said characters are inconsistent. Morrison was imo one of the best Batman writers and he had Jason as an all out Villain, Synder is a great Batman writer and he had Jason as reluctant family member so apparently no they just have to have a good grasp on the Bat himself.

[Aahz]

To be fair I can understand why some writers struggle with him. He's characterisation/identity is inconsistent. Is he an anti-hero, an all out villain or a good guy? Is he a part of the family? A reluctant part of the family? Does he even want to be a part of the family? He keeps flip flopping.

As a reader I am unclear as to Jason's role within the family and I think this might be the case for some writers.

The point is that the writers (especially the main Batman writers) should than try to make him more consistent and not keep writing him inconsistent.

[Badou]

Jason's character didn't fall under the Batman office. Lobdell had his own editors he was working with so it is difficult to get his character involved when he isn't being managed by the same people. Of course he is going to feel like an outsider.

[Sodam Yat]

He has no interest in any of the Robins and only ever uses them in his work to antagonize them, like in Death of the Family. Instead he chooses to promote his personal pet creations like Harper and Duke, who are the only allies of Batman who get any real focus in Snyders work. The fact that they're so derivative of existing characters (Stephanie Brown and Tim Drake) causes further harm. His personal creations have had no positive effects on the other characters at all, they make them look bad, redundant, or both.

At the moment the Bat-Family isn't relevant to the main Bat-books outside of bad crossovers and it's Snyders fault for making them so irrelevant during his run and DC using his personal creations in their place. He never cared about any of them. And he's perfectly happy continuing to ignore them because his pet characters get more panel time then. No one besides Duke has an important role in the 2 big Bat-books at the moment, everyone else is stuck in some smaller title getting nowhere near as much exposure. Because of Duke. Who is literally taking Tim's place in the next Bat-Family storyline, stealing the perfect opportunity for him to have interacted with the other Robins post-Rebirth.

Excuse my ignorance and I'm a little confused here, but most of those Bat-family characters around either headlined their own titles or were supporting characters in other Bat-books. Every since Damian came onto the scene, Tim didn't have as of a strong relationship with Bruce and there started to be a disconnect, which came before Snyder took over. New 52 and all of their continuity mess did have an effect on Tim's appeal, which wasn't even all due to Snyder. Although I agree about some of it being Snyder's fault, but I don't think he should be the main guy to be blamed here. And seeing Tom King having Duke in the book doesn't make any sense, because he seems like he doesn't want to have anything to do with the character, which I suspect he's only in the title, due to editorial push. If Snyder was forced to used Tim or whatever like what Tom King seemingly is doing with Duke, I don't know whether he'll be in a worse condition and/or lack panels like Duke is under Tom King.

Thats the problem, isn't it? He's the ONLY character really being pushed in the main books. Everyone else is irrelevant in comparison. Did Tim get to show up in King's Batman before fake-dying? Nope. Do Dick or Jason get story arcs in Batman or All Star? Nuh-uh. Does Damian, literally Robin, the character known for being Batman's closest ally, get to have a big role in any Batman books period? *clears throat* NO!!!

It doesn't matter that they're making appearances, the main Bat-books are the only hugely successful books DC publishes. Anything else is a downgrade. And the fact that Duke is the only character being allowed to take advantage of that success should bother any real fan of the Bat-Family. Don't complain about Damian or Dick being left out of those titles and then claim there's nothing wrong with Duke.

If there's other Bat-characters that have their own book like many fans of those characters would want, then what's the problem? Is it because you want to see more of Bruce hanging around with his sons?

Also, apologies, because I haven't read the other posts including yours, which might have answered my question.

[Atlanta96]

Excuse my ignorance and I'm a little confused here, but most of those Bat-family characters around either headlined their own titles or were supporting characters in other Bat-books. Every since Damian came onto the scene, Tim didn't have as of a strong relationship with Bruce and there started to be a disconnect, which came before Snyder took over. New 52 and all of their continuity mess did have an effect on Tim's appeal, which wasn't even all due to Snyder. Although I agree about some of it being Snyder's fault, but I don't think he should be the main guy to be blamed here. And seeing Tom King having Duke in the book doesn't make any sense, because he seems like he doesn't want to have anything to do with the character, which I suspect he's only in the title, due to editorial push. If Snyder was forced to used Tim or whatever like what Tom King seemingly is doing with Duke, I don't know whether he'll be in a worse condition and/or lack panels like Duke is under Tom King.



If there's other Bat-characters that have their own book like many fans of those characters would want, then what's the problem? Is it because you want to see more of Bruce hanging around with his sons?

Also, apologies, because I haven't read the other posts including yours, which might have answered my question.

My issue is, I'm really concerned about how much exposure characters get since the size of their fanbase affects how many opportunities they get. Seeing everyone else get relegated to series that sell nowhere near as much as Batman or ASB while Duke gets to appear in both those titles bothers me, since Duke is being exposed to more readers and thus getting a bigger push than anyone else.

I don't believe anyone should be forced to use any character, but I think it should still be acknowledged that making the Bat-Family irrelevant to the main books is bad for those characters. We don't know whether King actually cares about Duke or whether he's stuck with editorial mandates, all we know is that right now he's the only Robin who's really relevant to the main books right now.

Personally, yes. I want all the Pre-Flashpoint Robins to be a major part of Batman, both as individuals and as a unit. And I do see this effort to push Snyders creations as harmful to those characters, whether it's B&RE or using Duke in Tim's place among the other Robins. And I do see DotF as the catalyst for the issues facing the Bat-Family since the reboot, which the introduction of Duke and Harper only made worse. So, yeah. I blame him. Just my opinion though, and I'll wait until Tim comes back before I decide whether or not the Bat-Family is being royally screwed over again.

I don't blame you for not reading all of my posts, I wouldn't wish that amount of pain on anybody

[dietrich]

The point is that the writers (especially the main Batman writers) should than try to make him more consistent and not keep writing him inconsistent.

Why? Was he under the Bat office ? No he was under the Superman Office. Was he being written regularly by Batman writers? No Lobdell was his writer [possibly the reason he does a good Jason] and he wasn't a Batman writer. The Bat offices borrow him for cross over, use as required and return him back to Superman editorial.

Point is it wasn't their job. It was Superman editorial's job to develop Jason and give him a consistent characterisation and a defined direction.

[dietrich]

Jason's character didn't fall under the Batman office. Lobdell had his own editors he was working with so it is difficult to get his character involved when he isn't being managed by the same people. Of course he is going to feel like an outsider.

This right here.

[Aahz]

Why? Was he under the Bat office ? No he was under the Superman Office. Was he being written regularly by Batman writers? No Lobdell was his writer [possibly the reason he does a good Jason] and he wasn't a Batman writer. The Bat offices borrow him for cross over, use as required and return him back to Superman editorial.

Point is it wasn't their job. It was Superman editorial's job to develop Jason and give him a consistent characterisation and a defined direction.

1.) They use him quite often in the events, and he did appear regularly in Eternals and Batman Inc. for example. These appearences weren't just cameos (where a inconsistencies wouldn't brother me).

2.) Jasons charcterisation in the Superman Office books is realtivly consitent (with a few exceptions), the problem is that the Batoffice mostly ignores it

3.) You can't really define his role in the Batfamily without using the other Batfamily members, which imo means that the offices need to work together to get him consistent.

[skyvolt2000]

Point is it wasn't their job. It was Superman editorial's job to develop Jason and give him a consistent characterisation and a defined direction.

It's hard to do that when your leaders haven't given you what you can and can not use or say with a character.

Same issue with Tim & Teen Titans history.

And in reality-why would you even BOTHER knowing who he is linked to and THEY not YOU have the final say in what he is.

And there is no obligation to follow what was done by others.

As the Bat Office has shown-

How does Duke vary in his appearances in 5 different books? Every went out of their way to ignore KHary Randolph's design and We Are Robin as a whole.

How does Damian appear in the house in Teen Trainwreck yet is MIA in both books as is his pet? Wouldn't that pet of his be useful in Night of the Monsters and even in the current All Star Batman? Wouldn't flying on him with Two Face be better than a Bat boat or red baron plane?

[dietrich]

It's hard to do that when your leaders haven't given you what you can and can not use or say with a character.

Same issue with Tim & Teen Titans history.

And in reality-why would you even BOTHER knowing who he is linked to and THEY not YOU have the final say in what he is.

And there is no obligation to follow what was done by others.

As the Bat Office has shown-

How does Duke vary in his appearances in 5 different books? Every went out of their way to ignore KHary Randolph's design and We Are Robin as a whole.

How does Damian appear in the house in Teen Trainwreck yet is MIA in both books as is his pet? Wouldn't that pet of his be useful in Night of the Monsters and even in the current All Star Batman? Wouldn't flying on him with Two Face be better than a Bat boat or red baron plane?

In that case then it's more a case of DC not knowing what to do with Jason, not having a clear direction they wish to take his character in and sticking with it. which unfortunately is reflected in his character portrayals in crossovers and appearances outside of his own book.

In Damian's case it is clear that DC has plans for the character beyond Batman hence why he was deemed off limits to the Bat writers as Synder recently tweeted.

[dietrich]

[QUOTE]

It's hard to do that when your leaders haven't given you what you can and can not use or say with a character.

And in reality-why would you even BOTHER knowing who he is linked to and THEY not YOU have the final say in what he is.

I know this cos I have time on my hands and like to read.

I like Jason they way he is and I don't really have a problem with the way he is portrayed in crossovers. Sure there are inconsistencies but I'm not invested enough in the character to actually care. I think you might have missed a few threads in between. Or you are replying to the wrong poster.