The Original Ant-Man!: Hank Pym Appreciation

[Digifiend]

Maybe that's what Beast and Wasp will work on

Maybe - though it turns out that Wasp is Nadia. Still works though, since she'd be looking for her Dad.

[Michael Watkins]

The problem comes with people judging Hank as a totality because of this mistake, specifically because he slapped Janet (something that Shooter says he didn't intend in his original script, but that hardly matters now since he ran with it). I'm not going to go through and list every single hero that's done terrible things and have been summarily forgiven and are instead judged by their heroic deeds instead, but I'm sure you get the point. What we get is a vicious cycle of Hank being summed up as his singular worst action over and over again to the point where his great qualities and deeds are utterly lost in the vortex, even after he worked for redemption harder and longer than any other hero in the Marvel universe.

just my personal opinion but there isn't any comparison in the Marvel Universe for what Pym did. that's why he hasn't exited the cycle. no one would give a crap if his worst act was creating a mass murdering A.I or, simply, betrayed the Avengers. and Shooter's intentions are immaterial. how often do you hear stories of people shooting others with what they thought to be an unloaded gun? does it matter that they didn't intend to kill anyone? it's still a horrible crime, right? that's what spousal abuse is. and there are no mitigating factors because of how it was treated in-comic. Jan didn't say to him "Hank, I know that you have had ongoing mental issues. I know that you didn't mean to harm me. but I just can't be with you any longer." Hank, after the altercation, wasn't rounded up by the other Avengers and institutionalized; for his own well-being. we didn't see any scenes of him in therapy. and before one of you tries to treat me like an idiot, I've have read ever bit of the Fall and Pym's subsequent appearances. him having a court appointed psychiatrist is not seeing a therapist. and he wasn't in prison because of what he did to Jan. there was no mention of mental illness until much much later; when they mentioned Doc Samson prescribing him meds (and then the Avengers A.I. stuff). I'm not saying any of this to slam the character. I'm telling you why the wife-beater stuff stuck, in his case. if Shooter didn't intend for Hank's image to be shot to hell, he had every opportunity to fix it. instead, editorial tried to sweep it under the rug and just have Hawkeye (of all people) just happily welcome him back into the fold. that was disrespectful to Jan. how the Avengers reacted to her getting her eye swollen shut was disrespectful. like people are fond of saying, she was the first female Avenger. she was the heart of the team. they let her be harmed, unanswered, and had the nerve to still call themselves 'Avengers.' and she's paying for it, as much as Hank. the two of them are the Avengers dirty secret.

[CryNotWolf]

just my personal opinion but there isn't any comparison in the Marvel Universe for what Pym did. that's why he hasn't exited the cycle. no one would give a crap if his worst act was creating a mass murdering A.I or, simply, betrayed the Avengers. and Shooter's intentions are immaterial. how often do you hear stories of people shooting others with what they thought to be an unloaded gun? does it matter that they didn't intend to kill anyone? it's still a horrible crime, right? that's what spousal abuse is. and there are no mitigating factors because of how it was treated in-comic. Jan didn't say to him "Hank, I know that you have had ongoing mental issues. I know that you didn't mean to harm me. but I just can't be with you any longer." Hank, after the altercation, wasn't rounded up by the other Avengers and institutionalized; for his own well-being. we didn't see any scenes of him in therapy. and before one of you tries to treat me like an idiot, I've have read ever bit of the Fall and Pym's subsequent appearances. him having a court appointed psychiatrist is not seeing a therapist. and he wasn't in prison because of what he did to Jan. there was no mention of mental illness until much much later; when they mentioned Doc Samson prescribing him meds (and then the Avengers A.I. stuff). I'm not saying any of this to slam the character. I'm telling you why the wife-beater stuff stuck, in his case. if Shooter didn't intend for Hank's image to be shot to hell, he had every opportunity to fix it. instead, editorial tried to sweep it under the rug and just have Hawkeye (of all people) just happily welcome him back into the fold. that was disrespectful to Jan. how the Avengers reacted to her getting her eye swollen shut was disrespectful. like people are fond of saying, she was the first female Avenger. she was the heart of the team. they let her be harmed, unanswered, and had the nerve to still call themselves 'Avengers.' and she's paying for it, as much as Hank. the two of them are the Avengers dirty secret.

This is an absurd amount of cognitive dissonance. I like how you hand-wave "mass murder" but, in the same breath, try to label what Hank did as the most unforgivable crime in existence. And don't try to act like his actions during his fall were consistent with his character. That's so incredibly disengenuous it disservices whatever argument you think you have. He was manic and going through a complete nervous breakdown, bordering on a schizoprhenic episode. He hit his wife, and while yes it is technically spousal abuse, it was one time and he immediately got what he deserved for it. It's not like he ever had a history of abusing Janet before that point. The man lost his wife, his friends, his teammates, his, good name, his freedom...it led to the ruin of his entire life. And he never fully recovered. And what, you think it wasn't enough? Even with all we know about the character

And I'm sorry, but don't compare slapping your spouse to murder. I can't take anyone who thinks that way seriously in any capacity. In those days, Connery's James Bond was still slapping around uppity women in films and nobody thought twice about it, so I consider how seriously everyone handled Hank's slap to be pretty progressive and a step in the right direction on the topic of violence against women, but it's been pinpointed and blown up to the point of ludicrousness. He didn't beat her, he slapped her. It was awful, but I don't think anyone should ever be damned forever for hitting someone once in a manic fit. He paid for it, he learned from it, and he's worked tirelessly to both make it up to Janet and improve as a person since then.

It's time to grow up and move on from that part of their lives.

[Michael Watkins]

I like how you hand-wave "mass murder" but, in the same breath, try to label what Hank did as the most unforgivable crime in existence.

because, in comic book context, it is; well that and rape. the comics themselves handwave mass murder. characters that we never see and whom no one gives a damn about die all the time. it's rare that you see instances of spousal abuse. the latter is a far more personal crime.

[Michael Watkins]

And I'm sorry, but don't compare slapping your spouse to murder.

you think that I would have a different reaction if Hank had murdered Jan?

I can't take anyone who thinks that way seriously in any capacity. In those days, Connery's James Bond was still slapping around uppity women in films and nobody thought twice about it,

who is "nobody?" are you referring to yourself?

so I consider how seriously everyone handled Hank's slap to be pretty progressive and a step in the right direction on the topic of violence against women, but it's been pinpointed and blown up to the point of ludicrousness. He didn't beat her, he slapped her. It was awful, but I don't think anyone should ever be damned forever for hitting someone once in a manic fit. He paid for it, he learned from it, and he's worked tirelessly to both make it up to Janet and improve as a person since then.

I can't take anyone seriously who can write "he didn't beat her, he slapped her." how would you react to someone slapping one of your kids? do you know how hard you have to slap someone to swell their eye shut?



"shut up, woman!"

[Mary Jay]

Could I respectfully, one more time, remind people that this is an appreciation thread?

Thank you.

[Michael Watkins]

Could I respectfully, one more time, remind people that this is an appreciation thread?

Thank you.

I can agree to disagree

[Mary Jay]

do you know how hard you have to slap someone to swell their eye shut?

He had build-it stinger devices in his gloves at that time. Must have been similar to carrying brass knuckles.

I can agree to disagree

Then why come here? Genuine question here. You seem to dislike the character almost viscerally. Why come to his appreciation thread then?

[Michael Watkins]

He had build-it stinger devices in his gloves at that time. Must have been similar to carrying brass knuckles.



Then why come here? Genuine question here. You seem to dislike the character almost viscerally. Why come to his appreciation thread then?

better question is why do people keep bringing up the slap in a Hank Pym appreciation thread. I didn't bring it up.

[Frontier]

better question is why do people keep bringing up the slap in a Hank Pym appreciation thread. I didn't bring it up.

Probably because Marvel won't let it go when it comes to doing anything with Hank.

[Michael Watkins]

Probably because Marvel won't let it go when it comes to doing anything with Hank.

??? they did let it go. they killed him/made him into Ultron and had Nadia take Janet's last name. but this isn't even the place to discuss this.

[Frontier]

??? they did let it go. they killed him/made him into Ultron and had Nadia take Janet's last name. but this isn't even the place to discuss this.

Well, I hope we see the undoing of Pymtron soon .

[Mary Jay]

??? they did let it go. they killed him/made him into Ultron and had Nadia take Janet's last name. but this isn't even the place to discuss this.

No. They let it go when they had him reconcile with Jan in WCA. They let it go when they showed Hank and Jan being close friends by the end of the first volume of the Avengers (before the events that led to Heroes Return). They let it go when they decided to bring Hank and Jan back together as a happy couple in Busiek's run. They let it go by having Hank being a genuinely good person, caring for others more than for himself, setting up a school to help out teens who had been abused by Osborn, etc...

"Let it go" doesn't mean "kill the character so we don't hear from him anymore" or "have his estranged daughter decide not to take his name because".

"Let it go" means to move beyond what happened 35 years ago and show character growth.

Your example, to me, sounds more like disrespecting the character rather than let go.

[Mary Jay]

Well, I hope we see the undoing of Pymtron soon .

So do I, but I'm not very hopeful...

Well, maybe a bit more than I used to, but still... not that much. I'm waiting for Marvel to prove me wrong

[Michael Watkins]

No. They let it go when they had him reconcile with Jan in WCA. They let it go when they showed Hank and Jan being close friends by the end of the first volume of the Avengers (before the events that led to Heroes Return). They let it go when they decided to bring Hank and Jan back together as a happy couple in Busiek's run. They let it go by having Hank being a genuinely good person, caring for others more than for himself, setting up a school to help out teens who had been abused by Osborn, etc...

"Let it go" doesn't mean "kill the character so we don't hear from him anymore" or "have his estranged daughter decide not to take his name because".

"Let it go" means to move beyond what happened 35 years ago and show character growth.

Your example, to me, sounds more like disrespecting the character rather than let go.

I addressed you in the Wasp thread; since you reminded everyone that this was a Pym Appreciation thread.