Batman And Spider-Man Get Swapped

[master of read]

The whole premise of the thread in Scenario 1 is that Spider-Man was always a DC character and that the things that happened to Batman are now Spider-Man stories. This is going to change things.

Talia was also in college in her first appearance. She was a student taken from a University in Cairo. If we're talking the game of "how does it change stuff if Batman's stories happen to Spider-Man who was always part of DC", than Spider-Man meets Talia while fighting Doctor Darrk, and Ra's al Ghul later test Spider-Man because his daughter is in love with him. If that doesn't happen than the reason Ra's first meets Spider-Man would have to be a totally different comic. Given how Spider-Man stories play out she would probably have went to Gotham University, which I'm guessing is where a DC Peter Parker would go. So that's probably a big way how Scenario 1 would change things...she probably would have been someone Peter Parker knew from some college class that goes missing, and then he goes looking for her as Spider-Man.

but why would talia fall for him in the first place?

[The MunchKING]

To be fair to the guy who said Batman could/would yell at Doom, Doom and Spider-Man have crossed paths a few times. So while Spider-Man tried to smack-talk Doom into not blowing up New York for whatever reason, Batman may have to go for intimidation instead.

[Pendaran]

Probably by hitting him in the face.




Because of Legacy and those stories? Was Batman being a great detective instrument in the resolution to what happened there? I don't really remember much about those events. They were also a big tie-in series, so who is DC Spider-Man teaming up with here in his version of that? Does DC Spider-Man's support cast of heroes that show up sometimes become guys like Robotman (Robert Crane), Elongated Man, and other characters that would be showing up next to Spider-Man in Detective Comics?



The reason he takes notice of Batman is because Talia is in love with Batman, and he wanted to test his would be son-in-law. This doesn't have to change with Spider-Man. Spider-Man can still have his run-in with Doctor Darrk and still meet Talia all the same. Although it probably plays out somewhat different given that Spider-Man probably isn't being knocked out some ninjas with bamboo.



Because Spider-Man has always been a DC character as outlined in Scenario 1, which means the Ridder was created as a villain for Spider-Man, which means Ridder didn't get into supervillainy to match wits with Batman like he did in his first appearance. A Spider-Man Ridder isn't going to be exactly the same as a Batman Ridder in all regards because his reason for being would have to change.

So basically Spiderman handles being in Batman's place because every single character is completely changed from what they are and how they operate to suit Spiderman being able to deal with them? People wonder why I don't have a lot of regard for the "X replaced Batman" threads when they go up on the board, I never know what to say..

If we're talking the game of "how does it change stuff if Batman's stories happen to Spider-Man who was always part of DC",

We're talking how does Spiderman do in facing the situations and villains Batman has to deal with, not.. whatever it is that you have decided you are doing.

"Spiderman does fine because everyone that would be a problem for him to be able to deal with will be changed until Spiderman can deal with them" is certainly something.

[Pendaran]

To be fair to the guy who said Batman could/would yell at Doom, Doom and Spider-Man have crossed paths a few times. So while Spider-Man tried to smack-talk Doom into not blowing up New York for whatever reason, Batman may have to go for intimidation instead.

I've noted they have. A handful of times. To Spiderman's massive detriment. Given the way they were presented, the idea that Doom is some kind of regular Spiderman threat is really off. Beyond that, a dude crowing about how a guy replacing Spiderman would not be able to particularly handle something Spiderman couldn't particularly handle mostly highlights what these threads generally are.

[Little_Mac]

Actually NuBats totally called in the JLA for help recently during the whole Gotham the Superhero mess due to feeling it beyond him. He's been doing things otherwise like encouraging the building of superteams in Gotham not quite run by him (and in fact run by Batwoman, largely), encouraged Clayface as a superhero for a bit.

The tragedy of the Gotham arc was that Batman was depicted as ultimately finding himself okay with Gotham and Gotham girl, two incredibly powerful superheroes, operating in Gotham, he mostly just felt they needed some training/guidance because they were new at their careers. And then everything ended in death/misery/tears from outside factors.



Does fine with these. The Punisher particularly. The Punisher especially. In fact, while I could at least see the Kingpin for something like "Kingpin hires Typhoid Mary", why is the Punisher any kind of problem for Batman? Frank can certainly escape from whatever jail he ends up in after Batman takes him down, but as far as a direct problem, what about the Punisher, given Batman's general capacity and accomplishments, is especially a problem? Bear in mind before you answer "Batman will conveniently be written like an idiot despite everything he's shown he can do as far as planning, personal capacity, tracking people down and the like so the Punisher can get by" isn't really a thing we roll with.



It's actually a comparatively narrow window in the late 90s-early/mid 2000s where this was a big deal, the apex of it being the Earthquake/No Man's Land arc where he told the JLA to eff off. The current version of Batman is pretty cool with asking for help. He had the JLA make him a supersuit, the whole bit with Gotham, various things.



So basically this thread is no longer "has to replace Spiderman in his life", but now Doom is an established Spiderman defined rogue to the point that Batman would have to be dealing with him at all? Yeah, that didn't take long for the thread to go more normally to these things. I mean, certainly Spiderman ran into Doom a couple of times to Spiderman's glaring detriment (though the first time required Doom taking an interest in Spiderman that seems as unlikely to happen instead with Batman as Ra's being interested in Spiderman), but given that Spiderman couldn't really deal with Doom either, what does that particularly note about either man filling in for each other?

Also, how often does Doom actually mess with New York city outside of specifically going at Reed Richards and his family, are you trying to say?



So basically this was mostly "I want to note how Batman is beneath Captain America in capacity"? The guy he's physically on par with?

I concede most of your points, Pendaran. I was thinking of Post-Crisis Batman when I wrote most of this. The point I was trying to make was simply, "Batman takes ownership of the city he is in". He does ok with Gotham with most of the things that happen in it. New York City, however, is big enough, that that strategy wouldn't work. He does fine with the local stuff, but MU New York City is even more choatic than Gotham City. If he tries the same strategy, he fails. I was thinking Post- Crisis, mainly, not the Rebirth era.

[Totoro Man]

Little_Mac: the problem isn't that New York City is too big. the problem is that MCU New York is bursting at the seems with other heroes and villains. Batman would have to fight extremely hard to enjoy the sort of status that he has in Gotham. and I don't think he could do it. now, if the characters get swapped into their respective universes and these guys can call on outside help then they'll both find a way to muddle through.

guys like Osborn and Octavius wouldn't bother finding out Batman's identity because he's considered so far beneath them as to not be worth the trouble. even if Batman were to somehow prove to be a threat they could both discover his identity. (Otto unmasked Spiderman long before Norman did, but didn't believe it was real... and coincidences worked in Spidey's favor. Otto also took over Parker's life as the Superior Spiderman, right? so there's no reason why Otto couldn't figure out Batman's true identity-- if he considered it worth the trouble)

Spidey just can't hang with guys like Riddler and the other 'schemers'... yeah, he's smart... but he's NEVER shown the sort of penchant for detective work and solving mysteries and puzzles that Batman has.

although I think with Peter's scientific knowledge he'd actually do better against guys like Freeze, Mad Hatter, and Poison Ivy.

if Batman networks and gets access to tech from the Fantastic Four or Iron Man I could seem him just barely holding his own against Spidey's rogues gallery... but he wouldn't be able to do it with what we typically see him with in DC. he'd have to become a sort of Iron-Bat-Man. even if he got amped up to Daredevil stats he wouldn't really be able to do anything.

[Alan2099]

Given the standards being put forward in the thread (Doom is apparently a regular member of Spiderman's Rogues Gallery now?),

To be fair, in the Marvel Universe Dr. Doom is everyone's bad guy.

It's just one of the rites of passage for a Marvel hero. You've got to team-up with Spider-man and you've got to fight Dr. Doom. It's right up there with mistaking another hero for a villain and attacking them.

[Pendaran]

I concede most of your points, Pendaran. I was thinking of Post-Crisis Batman when I wrote most of this. The point I was trying to make was simply, "Batman takes ownership of the city he is in". He does ok with Gotham with most of the things that happen in it. New York City, however, is big enough, that that strategy wouldn't work. He does fine with the local stuff, but MU New York City is even more choatic than Gotham City. If he tries the same strategy, he fails. I was thinking Post- Crisis, mainly, not the Rebirth era.

Even post Crisis Batman, for most of his career, did crap like found the Outsiders and junk, and while he founded the Outsiders out of what you can argue was spite (though arguably not), he still went all in on sponsoring them at various clips (though they operated internationally, not locally, I suppose you can say, they were still a superteam he went out of his way to build and encourage and not kick out if they rolled up on his doorstep, he created a batcave for them in LA at one point, he gathered the team in Gotham at one point, he outright revealed his secret identity to them..), jerkass doesn't like working with other superheroes get out of my city Batman was mostly this one phase people really latched onto.. I mean post crisis Batman existed for a /while/. Once upon a time Alan Scott lived in Gotham. Batman was super happy about this for the little while it overlapped with him. Scott was one of his inspirations to become a superhero (yeah, a retcon during post crisis, but as retcons go, it made sense).

Anyway, he fails at replacing Spiderman largely because unless you want to take the really high end of his armours seriously (and I really, /really/ don't), eventually the higher up the Spiderman's rogues list you go, you run into people who break a power curve of what Batman can handle, even with, say, the mech suit (which I can more accept as a thing), I wanted to include the symbiotes in that (well, Carnage still), but Batman's suit now has built in sonic projectors/speakers as of recently, because nuBatman is Tony Stark lite for reals I guess (and I can't really argue that as being wildly out of line for Batman, the best you can say is that they're not a full out weapon at the moment, but nothing would really stop him from overclocking them or something when you think about it). Spiderman doesn't handle all the problems of New York either, and that's who he is sliding in for.

[Shellhead]

I have already seen the definitive answer to this topic, which I will now share with you:

[Pendaran]

Thread over. You win.

[Nik Hasta]

Well shit, you can't fight that.

[Totoro Man]

LOL. that's great stuff Shellhead.

[Primetime Harder]

Yup, pack it in, folks, nothing more to see here.

Also, bonus points to Pendaran for managing to work the words "Batman is a goober" into a sentence.

[Darth Godzilla]

but why would talia fall for him in the first place?

Because he saved her, which is all it took for her to fall in love with Batman in when they first met. She showed up as someone Batman saved in Detective Comic with not all that much being made of it, it wasn't like there was some romance happening in that comic; next time you see her is in Batman with the end reveal being that she loves Batman, and the little adventure he went on with Ra's was all a test to see if he was as good as Talia said. The things Batman was shown to do in that comic with Talia, which is seemingly the whole reason she falls for him, aren't things beyond what Spider-Man should be able to do when dropped into the same situation.

[Pendaran]

Setting entirely aside that you're rolling with the pre crisis take on the whole thing, to quote Ra's Al Ghul "Talia spoke highly of your abilities as a detective". What exactly will Spiderman be doing that would have her say anything like that?