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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think "simple" is just what people who don't like him say. Being a farmboy shouldn't really help or hurt, but strangely it does actually help his toughness.
    Honestly most times I see the farmboy thing get brought up it's treated like a handicap and how another character might have a chance at taking out Supes. The farmboy thing has no relevance to Superman and doesn't translate back into his life as Superman effectively. It's as far as I can tell there to enhance the "regular guy" angle they've been playing up since crisis other than that it seems irrelevant.

    Clark back in the day would have given Kara and Bruce the business, the fact that he's at best struggling with them but often depicted getting his clock cleaned by either in a variety of mediums shows the guy has fallen quite a bit from his prime. That's not just a power differential thing either but the shift in his whole attitude about being a superhero in general, I was reading The Earth stealer a few weekends back and when Supes is called into action he's so dejected and half hearted about it all you get the feeling he's not the type of guy who probably enjoys the struggle of the Superman life. The farm boy thing is at the heart of that because it's taken the characters focus away from being a hero and reigned him in to "relateable". But Supes is a character imo that needs to be allowed to spread his wings and fly.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member Slim Shady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I like Supes being a boxer. One because I always welcome callbacks to the Ali fight.
    Yes! A comic hero of mine vs a real life hero of mine. And it was fun too. Ali took it to him. To quote the man in real life This chump has got everybody scared. Scared of what? Aint nothing to be scared of. Scared of what?


    Goosebumps!
    Im gonna whoop George Foreman and Im gonna whoop him of all places in Africa. In the Congo. Where the Lamoomba boys are.

  3. #48
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Honestly most times I see the farmboy thing get brought up it's treated like a handicap and how another character might have a chance at taking out Supes. The farmboy thing has no relevance to Superman and doesn't translate back into his life as Superman effectively. It's as far as I can tell there to enhance the "regular guy" angle they've been playing up since crisis other than that it seems irrelevant.

    Clark back in the day would have given Kara and Bruce the business, the fact that he's at best struggling with them but often depicted getting his clock cleaned by either in a variety of mediums shows the guy has fallen quite a bit from his prime. That's not just a power differential thing either but the shift in his whole attitude about being a superhero in general, I was reading The Earth stealer a few weekends back and when Supes is called into action he's so dejected and half hearted about it all you get the feeling he's not the type of guy who probably enjoys the struggle of the Superman life. The farm boy thing is at the heart of that because it's taken the characters focus away from being a hero and reigned him in to "relateable". But Supes is a character imo that needs to be allowed to spread his wings and fly.
    If we look at Clark growing up on a farm, then we inherently have boxing with pa and contending with bulls in many cases, and in a few cases you have him largely being a plain human who say, gets in a fight with a bigger kid to stick up for someone else. That's one observation about Superman as a combatant that separates him from a Goku: he doesn't seek a thrill in challenging opponents but is always ready and often eager to straighten a bully out for someone else.

    As far as Kara and Bruce go then, you basically can never get his heart in it. He doesn't love the challenge if any so it's a bad fight. For comparison sake, you have pre crisis Kara straight up saving him in Crisis and also in Convergence. I'm not sure the implication was her being a superior fighter, just someone less burdened with the responsibility of being who Superman has to be to people. BvS wasn't a thing then of course, but at least Maggin did indicate that he'd have Bruce win, because otherwise that conflict is a dud.

    That reading of Earth Stealers is interesting. I did re read it maybe a few months ago, but I don't remember anything I could take that way. I mean, the story has him getting his first kiss with Lois, taking the entire planet back physically from intergalactic pirates, and for the sake of toughness beat the brakes off of their gladiator. That's the other difference between him and a "fighter" as his mind often goes to another task during conflict. Like what was happening to Perry.
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  4. #49
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    I think Superman doesn't have a defined fighting style. He punches a lot. He fights like a brawler. Kinda like Aquaman in the movie. And he also uses his other powers like heat vision, freeze breath, super speed, etc.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I think Superman doesn't have a defined fighting style. He punches a lot. He fights like a brawler. Kinda like Aquaman in the movie. And he also uses his other powers like heat vision, freeze breath, super speed, etc.
    Yeah I wouldn’t have him be a martial artist, although I also wouldn’t be opposed to him knowing some martial arts tricks. Some judo flips or what not.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    If we look at Clark growing up on a farm, then we inherently have boxing with pa and contending with bulls in many cases, and in a few cases you have him largely being a plain human who say, gets in a fight with a bigger kid to stick up for someone else. That's one observation about Superman as a combatant that separates him from a Goku: he doesn't seek a thrill in challenging opponents but is always ready and often eager to straighten a bully out for someone else.
    In the Golden Age he seemed pretty energetic and excited about mixing it up even when he didn't know what the outcome might be. There's a story where a group of mad scientist get together and create a race of giants for some criminal reason and Superman was pretty happy to throw down with them. Guy seemed to honestly enjoy the effort of having to break a sweat and throw down. He seemed pretty happy to accept Luthor's challenges as well. Seemed pretty classically masculine in that he was always up for a good challenge. Did those characteristic survive into modern days? No, but if they had he probably would be a much more exciting and focused character than what he is.



    As far as Kara and Bruce go then, you basically can never get his heart in it. He doesn't love the challenge if any so it's a bad fight. For comparison sake, you have pre crisis Kara straight up saving him in Crisis and also in Convergence. I'm not sure the implication was her being a superior fighter, just someone less burdened with the responsibility of being who Superman has to be to people. BvS wasn't a thing then of course, but at least Maggin did indicate that he'd have Bruce win, because otherwise that conflict is a dud.
    I'll have to reread Crisis but there's a lot of different ways for someone to "save" someone without it devolving into power levels. But I think a fairly simply calculation on Supes is that wikipedia says he's had about 4,000 or so more comics published despite having debuted only a year earlier than Bruce and having trailed him in popularity for at least the twenty or so. His foes in general massively dwarf Bruce's in the day to day comparisons and even before Superboy was introduced the character was called something of a roughneck by his father Jor-El pointing to a character with at least something of rough-and-tumble personality. Once Superboy is in play by the late 40's you have a character who has essentially been a life long hero and probably has tens of thousands of hours of on the job combat experience something most people in the DCU probably can't cop to. Despite all that he's suppose to drop a fight to his far less experienced cousin and a guy who was probably battling depression as a kid because it's less interesting if he wins a fight he by all logical reason should win.

    With respect to Maggin that's pro-wrestling staged fights stuff and I think it's beneath Supes. If someone wants to beat him they should earn it rather than have Supes job.



    That reading of Earth Stealers is interesting. I did re read it maybe a few months ago, but I don't remember anything I could take that way. I mean, the story has him getting his first kiss with Lois, taking the entire planet back physically from intergalactic pirates, and for the sake of toughness beat the brakes off of their gladiator. That's the other difference between him and a "fighter" as his mind often goes to another task during conflict. Like what was happening to Perry.
    I mean the story starts off with the typical stuff where he emphasizes his normality to the reader and assures them that he's the guy in the business suit and when he's called into his Superman duties he's laments it and is all "Uggh Again". The guy shrinks away at anything that seems to call for effort or might even give him a vague challenge in life. Which is ironic given the farm boy angle. Beyond that it's like I said not particularly manly watching him lament having to work up a sweat.

    Beyond that it's not really a bad story but everytime Supes is about to do something that looks like it could be cool the writer has to immediately walk it back to make sure it's not too impressive. When he flys out to the ship he first has to remind us that he can't breathe in space and has to hold his breath, but then that whole bit is thrown out the window because it doesn't come up again until he's conveniently near the ship when suddenly he's out of oxygen and then the ship is also conveniently full of oxygen as well. He gets basically crippled by psionic attacks which I don't really mind but the fight against the gladiator is just kind of weak. They just kind of pound on each other until Supes reveals that it's actually getting it's power from Jimmy, Lois, and Perry which makes it less impressive. Then when it comes time to put everything back Superman has too assure us that his whole role in everything is very limited and it's basically just the ship doing everything.

    Byrne believes less powers is more impressive but does anyone think what he did here was more impressive than what he did in Final Crisis?
    Last edited by The World; 03-10-2019 at 06:49 PM.

  7. #52
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    In the Golden Age he seemed pretty energetic and excited about mixing it up even when he didn't know what the outcome might be. There's a story where a group of mad scientist get together and create a race of giants for some criminal reason and Superman was pretty happy to throw down with them. Guy seemed to honestly enjoy the effort of having to break a sweat and throw down. He seemed pretty happy to accept Luthor's challenges as well. Seemed pretty classically masculine in that he was always up for a good challenge. Did those characteristic survive into modern days? No, but if they had he probably would be a much more exciting and focused character than what he is.
    It was pretty novel back then. I mean specifically, he never had to deal with an alien invasion way back then. There was Luthor lobbing grenades and Metalo for the most part, so it's not like the stakes were high enough for him to get serious. But he started exhibiting a different look by the time they had Parasite or Annihilator. The comics really didn't have this action focus that dominates this type of product. I think in story, the attitude he takes reflects that too, or like in Austen's run it's pronounced regularly. Kal L aas arguably cooler when it even came to letting goons clobber him.


    His foes in general massively dwarf Bruce's in the day to day comparisons and even before Superboy was introduced the character was called something of a roughneck by his father Jor-El pointing to a character with at least something of rough-and-tumble personality. Once Superboy is in play by the late 40's you have a character who has essentially been a life long hero and probably has tens of thousands of hours of on the job combat experience something most people in the DCU probably can't cop to. Despite all that he's suppose to drop a fight to his far less experienced cousin and a guy who was probably battling depression as a kid because it's less interesting if he wins a fight he by all logical reason should win.
    I think the real answer is not really having them fight. No one wants to see him beat up those same characters you describe in those ways; it's just not impressive or surprising.

    With respect to Maggin that's pro-wrestling staged fights stuff and I think it's beneath Supes. If someone wants to beat him they should earn it rather than have Supes job.
    I don't really like the link people make between wrestling and comics, but it does exist. The consequences to every situation are determined by creative whim. When they play it straight, like Hitch and Rucka had him beat up Batman, no one was impressed, and really it's just kind of a thing where he can't be in his right mind to crush a person like an ant. The decent reception was facilitated in JL by the losing events of BvS


    I mean the story starts off with the typical stuff where he emphasizes his normality to the reader and assures them that he's the guy in the business suit and when he's called into his Superman duties he's laments it and is all "Uggh Again". The guy shrinks away at anything that seems to call for effort or might even give him a vague challenge in life. Which is ironic given the farm boy angle. Beyond that it's like I said not particularly manly watching him lament having to work up a sweat.
    This version was inspired by George Reeves, who refused Clark as a "disguise" and recognized Superman as a kids' product. A "monkey suit." Aside from that, again in the context of his physical side, he saw no reason to hesitate traveling through hyperspace even though he never had.

    Beyond that it's not really a bad story but everytime Supes is about to do something that looks like it could be cool the writer has to immediately walk it back to make sure it's not too impressive. When he flys out to the ship he first has to remind us that he can't breathe in space and has to hold his breath, but then that whole bit is thrown out the window because it doesn't come up again until he's conveniently near the ship when suddenly he's out of oxygen and then the ship is also conveniently full of oxygen as well.
    He mentions not breathing on space as he'd just mention it under any circumstance, with the lack of air to breathe. The ship thing wasn't all that convenient as he'd been getting attacled in order to be captured in addition.

    He gets basically crippled by psionic attacks which I don't really mind but the fight against the gladiator is just kind of weak. They just kind of pound on each other until Supes reveals that it's actually getting it's power from Jimmy, Lois, and Perry which makes it less impressive. Then when it comes time to put everything back Superman has too assure us that his whole role in everything is very limited and it's basically just the ship doing everything.
    The clever thing about that fight is the plot twist: Superman being at a disadvantage is due to the enemy being vulnerable, so the Gunge is made even more powerful so that he doesn't hold back. Well I guess it's not as slick as just being the last Curt Swan fight scene anyway. But for the assumption that Superman just punches things, here's the actual end of the fight.



    Although his physical gifts weren't put behind in that scene, some of the action was scaled back in that sense in favor of making him more clever in feats. Like later moving the ship. One thing made clear in the run was the understanding that his power was basically just what level he thought it to be. So the second hyperspace trip, getting a measure of the experience, he does better on it than the first, even within this story.

    Byrne believes less powers is more impressive but does anyone think what he did here was more impressive than what he did in Final Crisis?
    Stuff like that stands out better when they're doing something new. If every story focused so much on being as epic, it'd feel less spectacular. For all his 80 years that's not what most of his stories aim for.
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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I wouldn’t have him be a martial artist, although I also wouldn’t be opposed to him knowing some martial arts tricks. Some judo flips or what not.
    I would. Because in-universe it makes sense. Part of Superman's deal is that he has precise control of his powers in ways that are subtle and easily missed. The idea that he'd know how to precisely target enemies to disable them just makes sense.

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