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  1. #46
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The past doesn't limit the future. It limits the past. Writers like Snyder and Tynion need to stop digging their wells in the characters origins and move forward to tell new stories. We don't progress with characters like Hawkman and such if we just keep retelling origins.

    No need to reinvent the wheel, just go somewhere with it.
    That makes sense - for a while. But 1 origin forever? That's too limiting. I think it should get rebooted every 20 to 30 years myself.

  2. #47
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Do they really have to always "matter" to continuity to matter though? I feel if we're always beholden to decades old stories it could limit possibilities in the future.
    I am actually all for limits. Not unreasonable ones, but I think art is made stronger by limitations. Self-indulgent art is generally less powerful, and I would argue that there are times King has been too self-indulgent, and I think as his narrative and artistic necessity has closed in around him at the end of this run, it's been much stronger.

    The same holds true for continuity. I think a writer who sees continuity as "binding" them doesn't see it for the true potential - the chance to be part of something that matters to more than just the conversation between you and your readers. The chance to be part of the legend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The past doesn't limit the future. It limits the past. Writers like Snyder and Tynion need to stop digging their wells in the characters origins and move forward to tell new stories. We don't progress with characters like Hawkman and such if we just keep retelling origins.

    No need to reinvent the wheel, just go somewhere with it.
    It's interesting to me you pin the idea of "orgin obsession" on Tynion. I'll definitely grant you Snyder (almost every single one of his stories hinges around the idea that something bad happened in the past, and you have to learn all new stuff about the past to understand it), and as Snyder's student, Tynion certainly has some elements of that, but I think Tynion's run on Detective Comics was one of the best examples of using continuity in the most creative and positive way possible. He took the histories of ALL of his characters, approached in the Rebirth fashion (meaning he had a free hand, but respect for what went before), and told a story driven by all of their desires. A few of the narratives were a bit backwards looking - Kate's - and Tim did get an origin revamp - but on the whole, it was all about moving forward. And I loved that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    It matters if it affects the present

    This is not exactly an answer to your question but it reminds me why I don't like some revised back story or superhero comic attempt at realism.

    Like for example... Batman being scared of Joker in Death of The Family doesn't make sense to me because that story is part fanservice to every story involving Batman vs Joker, but if Batman's been fighting Joker that long he shouldn't be that scared of Joker.

    In New 52, if Dick only stayed with Bruce for 3 years tops he shouldn't be that loyal or trusted.

    After reading Batman Year One and stories around it, I'm not buying that Batman will ever consider involving a child that young in crime-fighting, no matter what Dark Victory and Robin Year One tell me. All-Star Batman makes more sense because he's crazy. The teenage Robin in New 52 makes more sense.

    I only give a pass to Golden Age because they're just writing simple hero stories without any attempt at realism, but Year One and Batman Begins are selling the realism.

    If Talia really has been trained sword fighting since birth and has been dunked in the pit over and over, and according to Honor Blackman, Talia's already adult when she met her as a child, I'm not buying that Selina can beat her in a sword fight.

    If The Court really have been watching Gotham in a long time and they will send an assassin to steer Gotham to the direction they want why won't they assassinate Bruce Wayne when he took Dick before them.

    People don't like New 52 Tim became an academic and athletic prodigy and forcing his way to be Robin but that's the only way I can think of to fit the 5-year timeline.

    So on and so forth. Some work some don't.
    To be fair to Snyder, Death of the Family is supposed to be just four or five years after Joker has shown up, as opposed to the 10-15 years that pre-Flashpoint Batman had. (That being said, I really dislike the way Snyder particularly writes Batman and Joker, so that's as far in defense of his stuff I'm willing to go).

    Dick being 14-16 when he became Robin is one of those few things about the n52 I liked. Now, I wish they'd make him 24-26 in the present, instead of 21, but I agree that the Batman of Year One is not one who would use children, nor would children fit in that world. (And this even accepting that I like Year Two way more than The Long Halloween.)

    I know this is completely interpretation, but I think Talia was testing Catwoman, not trying to kill her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    I honestly prefer Zero Year. It (well the first half at least) felt like an update to Batman's Golden Age origin, which I liked.
    That's an excellent point. I'm not a Golden Age fan, so Zero Year doesn't really work for me, but I do think Snyder was deliberately trying for something like that, and he does include a lot of homages to stuff from all across the Batman mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That makes sense - for a while. But 1 origin forever? That's too limiting. I think it should get rebooted every 20 to 30 years myself.
    Interesting perspective. I've definitely heard a lot of professionals talk about this like it's common knowledge, but as someone who got into comics when I was about 18, and am now almost 15 years older, I prefer not to see reboots, especially when you have AUs and Elseworlds like White Knight and Earth One to give people those kinds of stories if they want.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I do think Talia is testing Selina, but sometimes I can't tell when King is bending characterization and skill in service of a story he's trying to tell, and when he is actually trying to be subtle. Especially after he admitted he made Catwoman too good.

    So Batman #79 revealed that The Boat happened almost exactly as it was in Golden Age, as in, Dick was there, so that's kinda thrown the timeline a little bit because The War of Jokes and Riddle was supposed to happen before any of the Robins, but they already met as Batman and Catwoman there. The War clearly wasn't their first meeting.

    So since I prefer Golden Age timeline, I elect to ignore the absence of Dick in the War.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I do think Talia is testing Selina, but sometimes I can't tell when King is bending characterization and skill in service of a story he's trying to tell, and when he is actually trying to be subtle. Especially after he admitted he made Catwoman too good.

    So Batman #79 revealed that The Boat happened almost exactly as it was in Golden Age, as in, Dick was there, so that's kinda thrown the timeline a little bit because The War of Jokes and Riddle was supposed to happen before any of the Robins, but they already met as Batman and Catwoman there. The War clearly wasn't their first meeting.

    So since I prefer Golden Age timeline, I elect to ignore the absence of Dick in the War.
    King had said that Batman didn’t feel solidified in his identity as Batman when he first started out. So he wasn’t truly Batman until after he took in Dick.

    He was the Batman, but he wasn’t yet Batman yet if that makes sense.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  5. #50
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's interesting to me you pin the idea of "orgin obsession" on Tynion. I'll definitely grant you Snyder (almost every single one of his stories hinges around the idea that something bad happened in the past, and you have to learn all new stuff about the past to understand it), and as Snyder's student, Tynion certainly has some elements of that, but I think Tynion's run on Detective Comics was one of the best examples of using continuity in the most creative and positive way possible. He took the histories of ALL of his characters, approached in the Rebirth fashion (meaning he had a free hand, but respect for what went before), and told a story driven by all of their desires. A few of the narratives were a bit backwards looking - Kate's - and Tim did get an origin revamp - but on the whole, it was all about moving forward. And I loved that.
    I think the backward-looking aspect was kind of necessary considering how much history or parts of the lives of the cast had been taken away from them, although I think the issue is more that he just didn't pace out or really develop their attempts to move on all that well after having that re-established. At least in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    King had said that Batman didn’t feel solidified in his identity as Batman when he first started out. So he wasn’t truly Batman until after he took in Dick.

    He was the Batman, but he wasn’t yet Batman yet if that makes sense.
    That's an interesting take on it.

    I think of Robin as an essential aspect of Batman but I don't think he necessarily completes Batman to that extent, unless you figure that sidekick aspect or partner is part of what makes Batman Batman.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Batwoman and the Colony was the worst of Snyder-rectonism showing. I stopped reading shortly thereafter.

    And I’d like to clarify that I don’t mean to say that Dick made Batman Batman. I obviously value the character a lot, but I don't have horseblinders on. I just meant that Bruce still didn’t think of himself as Batman during his early encounters with Selina. He could’ve become Batman before or after Dick, but he didn’t meet Selina as Batman until after Dick.

    Actually, it would work (and be pretty fitting) if he first saw himself as Batman during the Case of the Chemical Syndicate, making it the first true Batman story.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 09-19-2019 at 06:44 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  7. #52
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    King had said that Batman didn’t feel solidified in his identity as Batman when he first started out. So he wasn’t truly Batman until after he took in Dick.

    He was the Batman, but he wasn’t yet Batman yet if that makes sense.
    Yup, that's how I'd read it, especially since the whole point of the War is that he ended the war by nearly killing someone and being stopped by the Joker, so he definitely doesn't feel like he was "really" Batman yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the backward-looking aspect was kind of necessary considering how much history or parts of the lives of the cast had been taken away from them, although I think the issue is more that he just didn't pace out or really develop their attempts to move on all that well after having that re-established. At least in my opinion.

    That's an interesting take on it.

    I think of Robin as an essential aspect of Batman but I don't think he necessarily completes Batman to that extent, unless you figure that sidekick aspect or partner is part of what makes Batman Batman.
    Well, I think that as a whole, Tynion's Tec run was a masterpiece, so I don't see any real problems with what he did.

    I actually DO think that Robin is essential to Batman to that extent, so I like King's implicit thematic argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Batwoman and the Colony was the worst of Snyder-rectonism showing. I stopped reading shortly thereafter.

    And I’d like to clarify that I don’t mean to say that Dick made Batman Batman. I obviously value the character a lot, but I don't have horseblinders on. I just meant that Bruce still didn’t think of himself as Batman during his early encounters with Selina. He could’ve become Batman before or after Dick, but he didn’t meet Selina as Batman until after Dick.

    Actually, it would work (and be pretty fitting) if he first saw himself as Batman during the Case of the Chemical Syndicate, making it the first true Batman story.
    I know that the Colony is very controversial, but I still think it's pretty cool. But I will also agree that it's pretty much the same thing that Snyder tends to do over and over again. Just done way better.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Oh ok. That's more a psychology thing with the purpose of making claims without breaking a timeline and makes it unnecessarily confusing to people who just want facts but I get it.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The past doesn't limit the future. It limits the past. Writers like Snyder and Tynion need to stop digging their wells in the characters origins and move forward to tell new stories. We don't progress with characters like Hawkman and such if we just keep retelling origins.

    No need to reinvent the wheel, just go somewhere with it.
    I'm a bit of cynic and I wonder if it is not due to... movies? All superhero movies start with some sort of an origin story and you never know if they'll get to later adventures. I mean, take Hawkman, I think you could make 5 or so movies with him before you even would consider taking something from current run. So you know, if you want your story adapted then might as well focus on retelling origins and hope that one of them stick.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Dick being 14-16 when he became Robin is one of those few things about the n52 I liked. Now, I wish they'd make him 24-26 in the present, instead of 21, but I agree that the Batman of Year One is not one who would use children, nor would children fit in that world.
    I don't mind if they increase the starting ages of the Robins to make it more realistic, but then they have to do it for all of them imo.
    If you have Dick, Jason and Tim start at 16 but keep Damian as a 10 year old, like they did in the new 52, it doesn't make sense.

  11. #56
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I am actually all for limits. Not unreasonable ones, but I think art is made stronger by limitations. Self-indulgent art is generally less powerful, and I would argue that there are times King has been too self-indulgent, and I think as his narrative and artistic necessity has closed in around him at the end of this run, it's been much stronger.

    The same holds true for continuity. I think a writer who sees continuity as "binding" them doesn't see it for the true potential - the chance to be part of something that matters to more than just the conversation between you and your readers. The chance to be part of the legend.
    You don't need to follow strict continuity to be "part of the legend". Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns is a huge part of the legend, and it has never been in continuity. The Long Halloween is a classic now and part of the Batman legend, and it retconned out earlier canon by redoing the Two Face origin and thus removing an earlier story from canon. A lot of people consider The White Knight one of the best additions to the Bat "legend" in years, and it isn't in continuity. Look at the stories that have reshaped and redefined the legend just because they weren't beholden to continuity. Hell, even a lot of in continuity stories that shaped the current legend of Batman also ignored continuity - pre-Crisis continuity. Year One wasn't beholden to the origin that came before it, it was a retcon. And now writers are retconning some of the retconned out pre-Crisis stuff back in!

    Continuity changes, and that is also part of being a part of the legend - deciding which bits of continuity matters, and which don't. Sure, there's some true potential in continuity - there's also some true potential in retconning it too.


    Interesting perspective. I've definitely heard a lot of professionals talk about this like it's common knowledge, but as someone who got into comics when I was about 18, and am now almost 15 years older, I prefer not to see reboots, especially when you have AUs and Elseworlds like White Knight and Earth One to give people those kinds of stories if they want.
    I prefer both reboots and AUs and Elseworlds. They serve different functions. Most elseworlds are never going to be some massive universe, but a decent Post Crisis styled reboot? That's got some potential. After all, if you've been reading comics for about 15 years, then isn't the universe you got invested in the rebooted one? Never mind that about a third of your comic book reading history took place during yet another reboot (albeit and ill thought out one)?

  12. #57
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Yup, that's how I'd read it, especially since the whole point of the War is that he ended the war by nearly killing someone and being stopped by the Joker, so he definitely doesn't feel like he was "really" Batman yet.
    I don't know if that was the case of not "really" being Batman yet, just that he became compromised at the end.
    Well, I think that as a whole, Tynion's Tec run was a masterpiece, so I don't see any real problems with what he did.
    I think it's too flawed and all over the place to be a masterpiece, but I always appreciated Tynion's intentions and what he tried to do with it. It was an ambitious book, and while the execution wasn't always there to match it, I respected it all the same.
    I actually DO think that Robin is essential to Batman to that extent, so I like King's implicit thematic argument.
    I think Robin or that essential sidekick does complete Batman to a certain extent, especially since it leads to the Batfamily, although I think he can still be Batman without it.

  13. #58
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I don't mind if they increase the starting ages of the Robins to make it more realistic, but then they have to do it for all of them imo.
    If you have Dick, Jason and Tim start at 16 but keep Damian as a 10 year old, like they did in the new 52, it doesn't make sense.
    I agree that you have to have Dick, Jason, Tim, AND STEPH start at around 14-16. But Damian is deliberately constructed by Morrison to be the most "plausible" 10-year-old elite crime fighting sidekick. I don't love how much Morrison had to swing to make it work, but I appreciate what he did. Damian at 15 to start out with doesn't quite work, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    You don't need to follow strict continuity to be "part of the legend". Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns is a huge part of the legend, and it has never been in continuity. The Long Halloween is a classic now and part of the Batman legend, and it retconned out earlier canon by redoing the Two Face origin and thus removing an earlier story from canon. A lot of people consider The White Knight one of the best additions to the Bat "legend" in years, and it isn't in continuity. Look at the stories that have reshaped and redefined the legend just because they weren't beholden to continuity. Hell, even a lot of in continuity stories that shaped the current legend of Batman also ignored continuity - pre-Crisis continuity. Year One wasn't beholden to the origin that came before it, it was a retcon. And now writers are retconning some of the retconned out pre-Crisis stuff back in!

    Continuity changes, and that is also part of being a part of the legend - deciding which bits of continuity matters, and which don't. Sure, there's some true potential in continuity - there's also some true potential in retconning it too.

    I prefer both reboots and AUs and Elseworlds. They serve different functions. Most elseworlds are never going to be some massive universe, but a decent Post Crisis styled reboot? That's got some potential. After all, if you've been reading comics for about 15 years, then isn't the universe you got invested in the rebooted one? Never mind that about a third of your comic book reading history took place during yet another reboot (albeit and ill thought out one)?
    You make excellent points, but I have the mindset of a fan who loves the Rebirth approach to continuity. Honor what has gone before, but don't be bound by it. Too many writers seem to think that the only way to be "free" of continuity is to give it the middle finger - to disrespect it, rather than honor it even if you're changing it. And I don't appreciate that as a general rule.

    Yes, I am invested in the Post-Crisis universe. But I actually left DC comics for 3 years from 2011-2014, for exactly that reason - the deliberately got rid of most of the things I held dearest about the DC Universe, and I only came back when they started bringing them back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't know if that was the case of not "really" being Batman yet, just that he became compromised at the end.

    I think it's too flawed and all over the place to be a masterpiece, but I always appreciated Tynion's intentions and what he tried to do with it. It was an ambitious book, and while the execution wasn't always there to match it, I respected it all the same.

    I think Robin or that essential sidekick does complete Batman to a certain extent, especially since it leads to the Batfamily, although I think he can still be Batman without it.
    I think Bruce is such a black and white thinker that he cannot count himself as "really" Batman until he's truly committed to the mission, including the No Kill rule.

    Batman can be Batman alone, but he's kind of just a crazy dude in a mask. With Robin, he's someone building something great.

    And no one's every gonna convince me that what Tynion did, flaws and all, isn't a masterpiece. The level of craft and passion he poured in was amazing!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  14. #59
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I agree that you have to have Dick, Jason, Tim, AND STEPH start at around 14-16. But Damian is deliberately constructed by Morrison to be the most "plausible" 10-year-old elite crime fighting sidekick. I don't love how much Morrison had to swing to make it work, but I appreciate what he did. Damian at 15 to start out with doesn't quite work, I think.
    Yeah, an older Damian would be weird...I think it only really works in stuff like Injustice.
    I think Bruce is such a black and white thinker that he cannot count himself as "really" Batman until he's truly committed to the mission, including the No Kill rule.
    I assumed he had the No Kill Rule back then, he was just pushed into breaking it and that's what he was so ashamed of. I never really got the sense that afterwards he re-affirmed it beyond the fact that we assume something like that never happened (beyond the points where he did come close to killing someone in his long history).
    Batman can be Batman alone, but he's kind of just a crazy dude in a mask. With Robin, he's someone building something great.
    I mean, I don't think Batman solo can be just written off as a "crazy dude in a mask," since he's more then that. Even with Robin he's got Alfred and Gordon. Robin is an entirely different aspect then that in my opinion.
    And no one's every gonna convince me that what Tynion did, flaws and all, isn't a masterpiece. The level of craft and passion he poured in was amazing!
    Passion I'll definitely give you. Craft could be a little topsy-turvy .

  15. #60
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    You make excellent points, but I have the mindset of a fan who loves the Rebirth approach to continuity. Honor what has gone before, but don't be bound by it. Too many writers seem to think that the only way to be "free" of continuity is to give it the middle finger - to disrespect it, rather than honor it even if you're changing it. And I don't appreciate that as a general rule.

    Yes, I am invested in the Post-Crisis universe. But I actually left DC comics for 3 years from 2011-2014, for exactly that reason - the deliberately got rid of most of the things I held dearest about the DC Universe, and I only came back when they started bringing them back.
    I don't think retconning is giving old stories or continuity is giving it the middle finger. What makes you think it is done disrespectfully?

    I wonder if a lot of people left when they got rid of the pre-Crisis stuff too.

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