Squadron Supreme #13

[XPac]

and Gwen Stacy's death allowed Peter to connect with Mary Jane. what's your point?

My point is pretty simple. If Namur didn't do what he did the mulriverse would not have survived. He did what needed to be done. I Gwen death resulted in the universe not being destroyed I'd say that wirked out for the best too.

[Reviresco]

Originally, Marvel said Toro died in the 1950's.

But, wasn't he really alive in the 1990's, seen in West Coast Avengers?

Has he since died and been returned? I think I may have missed something.

No, I believe you are thinking of Jim Hammond, the Original Human Torch. He 'died' in the 1950s, and was resurrected a couple times later, including in the West Coast Avengers. That's if you don't count the horribly convoluted mess they made by saying the Vision is actually Jim Hammond ... or made of Jim Hammond's android body, but re-programed.

Toro is the Original Human Torch's human sidekick. Or more precisely, mutant, or now Inhuman sidekick, depending on which superpowered race Marvel is trying to push today. ;p

He retired after Torch 'died' and lived a normal life, got married and disappeared from superheroing ... until Subby #14, where the Mad Thinker kidnapped him, wiped his memory and made him believe HE was the Original Human Torch. He ended dying that same issue, but with his memory restored.

He wasn't brought back to life until 'recently,' with the Avengers Invaders mini-series we are talking about in the Namor Advent Calendar thread.

Yeah, comics are simple! LOL!

I am not defending other resurrections, particularly the back-written resurrections. (Planned resurrections are more tolerable, if not always okay.)

But, yeah, "brought back from the dead with a Cosmis Cube" more or less sorts out any age questions. ("brought back from the dead with a Cosmic Cube"...)

Sure. NOW. It doesn't explain how an 80+ year old man was passing himself off as the Original Human Torch in Subby #14, since the sliding timeline has now moved the events of that 1970 comic to 2005ish. It's basically the Magneto problem. There's an explanation for Magneto's physical youth NOW, but it doesn't explain how he looked and acted like he was in his 30s to 40s for half of his super powered career, when those events happened when he was actually 80+ years old, thanks to the sliding timeline.

But, the Squadron would likely take the side of the air-breathing population. (Robinson is not necessarily saying that they would be right. But, it would make sense for the Squadron to do that.)

And, most surface breathers living on Marvel world would probably be happy to see the end of Atlantis. How many times have the fishy-folk attacked the surface world?

That's debatable. Even in the comics, Namor and the Atlanteans have a base of support. And I don't think most people want to see the total destruction of Germany, or Japan, or North Korea or Iran or Iraq or _fill in the blank_ of any countries that are or have been in strife, and the attempted genocide of their population.

The Atlanteans have actually invaded the surface world far fewer times than some would have you believe. Almost every Atlantean invasion of the surface world has been occurred AFTER an action by the surface world. Such as AFTER the surface world has bombed their cities, dropped chemical waste on them, polluted their living areas, fired nuclear missiles at them, kidnapped their rulers, attacked their allies, etc.

It only makes sense if the SS are racists, committed to subjugating or eradicating races who don't fit their idea of 'human' if they get uppity and demand the surface world actually STOP threatening them or the planet. Oh, wait, that IS Robinson's SS.

Yeah, there are some Nazi and Hitler analogs in this book, but it ain't Namor and the Atlanteans.

[Michael Watkins]

That's debatable. Even in the comics, Namor and the Atlanteans have a base of support. And I don't think most people want to see the total destruction of Germany, or Japan, or North Korea or Iran or Iraq or _fill in the blank_ of any countries that are or have been in strife, and the attempted genocide of their population.

The Atlanteans have actually invaded the surface world far fewer times than some would have you believe. Almost every Atlantean invasion of the surface world has been occurred AFTER an action by the surface world. Such as AFTER the surface world has bombed their cities, dropped chemical waste on them, polluted their living areas, fired nuclear missiles at them, kidnapped their rulers, attacked their allies, etc.

It only makes sense if the SS are racists, committed to subjugating or eradicating races who don't fit their idea of 'human' if they get uppity and demand the surface world actually STOP threatening them or the planet. Oh, wait, that IS Robinson's SS.

Yeah, there are some Nazi and Hitler analogs in this book, but it ain't Namor and the Atlanteans.

[/QUOTE]

it's not debateable. we saw it in the reactions to the Squadron's actions. notably, there was an individual cheering them on because his father or grandfather died when Namor flooded the surface world. we saw it during Dark Reign as well. Namor sees humans as beneath him. if he didn't, he would have apologized for murdering the Wakandans. this is pretty much an open and shut case. he's not Hitler. he's a more run-of-the-mill terrorist.

[Michael Watkins]

My point is pretty simple. If Namur didn't do what he did the mulriverse would not have survived. He did what needed to be done. I Gwen death resulted in the universe not being destroyed I'd say that wirked out for the best too.

do you remember what caused the incursions?

[XPac]

do you remember what caused the incursions?

Sure I remember what caused the inxursions. But my point is because Doom doesn't travel back with MM until after the incursion Namur stops, he needs to survive it in order to travel back and cause them. Him being killed before he has a chance to go back and cause the incursions. That moment HAS to occur for the loop to exist.

That's why I'm saying things happened the way they needed to happen. If things occurred differently we wouldn't get the end result they needed.

[XPac]

it's not debateable. we saw it in the reactions to the Squadron's actions. notably, there was an individual cheering them on because his father or grandfather died when Namor flooded the surface world. we saw it during Dark Reign as well. Namor sees humans as beneath him. if he didn't, he would have apologized for murdering the Wakandans. this is pretty much an open and shut case. he's not Hitler. he's a more run-of-the-mill terrorist.[/QUOTE]

Namor wouldn't apologize even if he thought humans were equal to or above him. That's just Namor.

He would sooner admit to mass murder than admit the Phoenix manipulated him. He's just that kind of guy.

[Michael Watkins]

it's not debateable. we saw it in the reactions to the Squadron's actions. notably, there was an individual cheering them on because his father or grandfather died when Namor flooded the surface world. we saw it during Dark Reign as well. Namor sees humans as beneath him. if he didn't, he would have apologized for murdering the Wakandans. this is pretty much an open and shut case. he's not Hitler. he's a more run-of-the-mill terrorist.

Namor wouldn't apologize even if he thought humans were equal to or above him. That's just Namor.

He would sooner admit to mass murder than admit the Phoenix manipulated him. He's just that kind of guy.[/QUOTE]

and that kind of guy has his severed head kicked around by someone he hurt.

[Michael Watkins]

Sure I remember what caused the inxursions. But my point is because Doom doesn't travel back with MM until after the incursion Namur stops, he needs to survive it in order to travel back and cause them. Him being killed before he has a chance to go back and cause the incursions. That moment HAS to occur for the loop to exist.

That's why I'm saying things happened the way they needed to happen. If things occurred differently we wouldn't get the end result they needed.

so, in a way, Namor is responsible for the incursions.

[Reviresco]

it's not debateable. we saw it in the reactions to the Squadron's actions. notably, there was an individual cheering them on because his father or grandfather died when Namor flooded the surface world. we saw it during Dark Reign as well. Namor sees humans as beneath him. if he didn't, he would have apologized for murdering the Wakandans. this is pretty much an open and shut case. he's not Hitler. he's a more run-of-the-mill terrorist.

Well, I'm glad to see you now realize that Namor and Hitler aren't the same.

Yes, it IS debateable, and right there on the exact same page you are using as an example, as well as the whole series. ONE guy says that. Plenty of other people in the comic don't agree with what the SS did -- including most the heroes. Heck, at this point, even Namor's murderers themselves are debating it and see that they were WRONG.

Namor was allied with the mutants during Dark Reign. So yes, there were people who were trying to kill him. Mostly anti-mutant racists. And there were plenty of people who didn't want to kill him and were helping him and the mutants. So again, debatable.

It is debatable cause we've seen it all along with Namor and the Atlanteans -- for example when he joined the Avengers. The WWII veterans came out and supported him. The hippies supported him. Anyone interested in environmental issues supported him. Tons of heroes from the FF to Thor to Captain America have supported him. Even AUNT MAY thought he was great. All those people have DEBATED with those that hated him, for whatever reason.

It was a Phoenix possessed Namor who killed some Wakandans, but it was Namor who offered to make amends. Apparently, the Wakandans and the SS see themselves above the Atlanteans, cause we haven't seen a single apology from any of them either, after doing their best to destroy Atlantis and commit genocide against the Atlanteans with intent. We've never seen a single apology from any airbreather country, either, for killing countless Atlanteans by dropping nuclear bombs, chemicals, ice bergs on them, as well as using them in experiments and magical sacrifices, blowing them up, etc. -- though half of that was without intent. So, by your logic, I guess the airbreathers see the Atlanteans as beneath them -- and not just physically.

But then again, American hasn't apologized for dropping nuclear bombs on Japan or firebombing Dresden, either. Plenty of countries do NOT apologize for actions taken during war or any number of awful things. It doesn't mean that they believe the victims are beneath them, as this article points out.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.28123a34b539

[Reviresco]

Namor wouldn't apologize even if he thought humans were equal to or above him. That's just Namor.

He would sooner admit to mass murder than admit the Phoenix manipulated him. He's just that kind of guy.

Except, Namor DID admit to Hope he wasn't under his own control with the Phoenix. He even admitted privately to T'challa he had regrets. But why some readers, or characters, can't figure out that the Phoenix was possessing the P5 and they weren't acting normal, seems strange to me.

It is rare, but Namor has apologized for any number of things. However, as others have pointed out, expecting him to apologize in the middle of a war, seems a bit of a stretch. And then there's that article I linked.

[XPac]

so, in a way, Namor is responsible for the incursions.

Using that logic you can technically say ANY superhero that's ever saved the world are just as responsible since they prevented Doom from being killed before he could start the incursions.

That said it's certainly true that Namors actions were a necessary part of the cycle which brought about the incursions, the end and the restoration of the multiverse. His actions were one chain in a long link of events which were necessary to preventing the Beyonders from destroying the universe.

[CentralPower]

The Squadron are not supposed to be rooted in black and white morality. (That is kind of the point of the characters.) As unfocused as this series has been, Robinson has still managed to get that much right.

Namor was a jerk. And, even assuming he needed killing for that, there is still the question of what the Squadron did to Atlantis. (Even assuming survivors, the fish-folk still have no place to go. A better follow-up for Namor's death would have been Atlantis attacking the US in retaliation.)

Was Namor "possessed" when he lamented that he hadn't killed enough Wakandans?

Does being drunk count? (Namor was pretty tanked.)

Sure, I'm well aware Doom had a time machine. Problem being he wasn't traveling back in time the exact moment the incursion was taking place, so he would have died just like everyone else. He did in fact travel back in time but that was well after Namor stopped that incursion.

It is hard to be certain.

Doom knew about the incursions by the fourth or fifth issue. (One happened, literally, in his backyard.) He may have been fiddling with the time machine and Molecule Man before the fight with the Great Society.

[Reviresco]

The Squadron are not supposed to be rooted in black and white morality. (That is kind of the point of the characters.) As unfocused as this series has been, Robinson has still managed to get that much right.

Namor was a jerk. And, even assuming he needed killing for that, there is still the question of what the Squadron did to Atlantis. (Even assuming survivors, the fish-folk still have no place to go. A better follow-up for Namor's death would have been Atlantis attacking the US in retaliation.)

Last I checked, being a jerk was not a capital offense.

Yes, the Atlantis thing was reaching with Reed Richards arms.

My main point, which might have gotten lost rebutting all the stuff dragged in, wasn't so much about the morality of the SS, but that the SS are the most stupidly blatant hypocritical characters in the book. It's like someone announcing that they must kill all vanilla ice cream eaters, while eating a vanilla ice cream cone.

It is hard to be certain.

Doom knew about the incursions by the fourth or fifth issue. (One happened, literally, in his backyard.) He may have been fiddling with the time machine and Molecule Man before the fight with the Great Society.

I know Hickman left a lot off panel, but there's no evidence of this happening.

[Bunai]

It was pretty obvious (to me at least) that Namor was trying to get under T'challa's skin. T'challa had just sucker punched him, and anyone who read AvX: Consequences knows that Namor did, in fact, feel guilt about what he had done.

Now, whether or not you ignore that evidence is entirely up to you.

If people were unaware of the character prior to the events, then the 'Consequences' mini read as Namor feeling violated rather than remorseful. You only read Hope express any form of feeling about the civilians involved.

[CentralPower]

I know Hickman left a lot off panel, but there's no evidence of this happening.

I was figuring that Doom became aware of the incursions when one happened in his back yard. And, he would have moved pretty quickly on that problem.

But, there is a case for saying that he did not know as late as "A Perfect World", as he was sitting calmly at home while an incursion (solved by Namor's Cabal) was happening.