Squadron Supreme #13

[CentralPower]

The "Civil War II" cross-over continues.

The time-travel and "raise the dead" angles cliche. There is no getting around it. Maybe if it were resolved in the first arc's worth of comics, it would have been better. But, at this point, the resolution is not quite worth it.

The series is finally getting to Squadron-type stuff, with Hyperion and Spectrum questioning how much they should do and the morality of what they have done. And, there is yet another scene where Robinson plays with the idea of "characters from different universes have culture shock". Similarly, Robinson has Jim "Human Torch" Hammond complaining about how heroes often fight each other as much as they fight villains.

The series has improved over the last few months. But, Robinson needs to prioritize for wrapping up old plot-threads and organizing this series. (It is still not even 100% clear what he is trying to do, even after a year.)

[Bunai]

Too many conveniences, basically.
But the characterization is actually quite decent.

[Michael Watkins]

Jim Hammond's a hypocrite. he's gungho about arresting the Squadron. where was he when Namor was killing the Wakandans? and who is he to complain about heroes fighting one another? it's literally how we met him. I can forgive Toro for being that clueless. but Jim's old as dirt. things should be a little less black and white for him, imo.

[Michael Watkins]

The "Civil War II" cross-over continues.

The time-travel and "raise the dead" angles cliche. There is no getting around it. Maybe if it were resolved in the first arc's worth of comics, it would have been better. But, at this point, the resolution is not quite worth it.

The series is finally getting to Squadron-type stuff, with Hyperion and Spectrum questioning how much they should do and the morality of what they have done. And, there is yet another scene where Robinson plays with the idea of "characters from different universes have culture shock". Similarly, Robinson has Jim "Human Torch" Hammond complaining about how heroes often fight each other as much as they fight villains.

The series has improved over the last few months. But, Robinson needs to prioritize for wrapping up old plot-threads and organizing this series. (It is still not even 100% clear what he is trying to do, even after a year.)

in my opinion, Robinson should have done what he promised; introduced the Squadron as a team aggressively eliminating threats in the world while ignoring the social constraints of their adoptive world. if he had bothered to make them formidable, it'd be a lot easier to accept everyone they encounter scolding them. instead, they've been utilized about as well as the Dark Reign-era Thunderbolts. I'd didn't invest in the run to see Jim Hammond call Blur a crazy idiot 3 issues straight. and I see all of the characterization being plot-induced. these characters aren't really exploring one another. Spectrum pretty much shut Blur out; when he started talking about how different his world was. so why should I care? and where the **** is Nighthawk? why reintroduce Zarda if she no longer has powers? might as well just be the brand new 616 non-powered version of the character.

[Bunai]

Was Jim Hammond even being used during the whole Civil War/AvX thing?

I remember Invaders and Avengers, but that's about it.

Given his history he should be against violence against humanity in general.

[Michael Watkins]

Was Jim Hammond even being used during the whole Civil War/AvX thing?

I don't know. but he's been an active member of SHIELD since before the Fantastic Four disappeared.

[DurararaFTW]

Jim Hammond was dead during Civil War and comatose during AvX. He went offline in Secret Avengers #25, #26-#28 were AvX tie-ins, he was repaired in #35. Couldn't do anything about Namor.

[LordLeviathan]

Jim Hammond's a hypocrite. he's gungho about arresting the Squadron. where was he when Namor was killing the Wakandans? and who is he to complain about heroes fighting one another? it's literally how we met him. I can forgive Toro for being that clueless. but Jim's old as dirt. things should be a little less black and white for him, imo.

well one could argue that being possesed by the phoenix might speak for Namor . and aren't the Squadron the bigger hypocrites?

[CentralPower]

my opinion, Robinson should have done what he promised; introduced the Squadron as a team aggressively eliminating threats in the world while ignoring the social constraints of their adoptive world.

The problem with this model is that it is hard to do and allow the Squadron to be credibly strong. (They cannot be too successful and remain consistent with Marvel's status-quo.)

But, yes, this series has lacked focus. The fault may or may not have been with Robinson. (It may well have been Marvel giving him too many mandates to work from.) But, the series went from an over-cramped set-up to a digression with the Inhumans that added nothing by baggage (and ignored the earlier plot). Then, it was finally focused during the cross-over. But, I doubt that anything will be resolved appropriately before the next issue or two.

"Squadron Supreme" works as a generic superhero series. And, that is when the Squadron is conceptually weakest. (If I did not have a pre-existing attachment to the characters, I likely would not have held on this long.)

[Michael Watkins]

well one could argue that being possesed by the phoenix might speak for Namor . and aren't the Squadron the bigger hypocrites?

as individuals or as a team? they are from different destroyed realities.

[Michael Watkins]

The problem with this model is that it is hard to do and allow the Squadron to be credibly strong. (They cannot be too successful and remain consistent with Marvel's status-quo.)

But, yes, this series has lacked focus. The fault may or may not have been with Robinson. (It may well have been Marvel giving him too many mandates to work from.) But, the series went from an over-cramped set-up to a digression with the Inhumans that added nothing by baggage (and ignored the earlier plot). Then, it was finally focused during the cross-over. But, I doubt that anything will be resolved appropriately before the next issue or two.

"Squadron Supreme" works as a generic superhero series. And, that is when the Squadron is conceptually weakest. (If I did not have a pre-existing attachment to the characters, I likely would not have held on this long.)

I don't want them to be generic either. I just don't think you can make high concept work without first making the characters sympathetic or, at least, interesting. if the writer thought that them killing Namor was unjustified, he shouldn't have done it. because it seeps through in his writing.

[Michael Watkins]

Jim Hammond was dead during Civil War and comatose during AvX. He went offline in Secret Avengers #25, #26-#28 were AvX tie-ins, he was repaired in #35. Couldn't do anything about Namor.

he can read a newspaper. and I'm not against him trying to bring the Squadron to justice. but he speaks to them as if they weren't doing what he did to Hitler.

[Michael Watkins]

well one could argue that being possesed by the phoenix might speak for Namor . and aren't the Squadron the bigger hypocrites?

one could argue that. but it'd be an immensely weak argument when you factor in Namor saying that he was proud of his actions; to T'challa. if you think the Squadron are hypocrites, present your case. where is the moral inconsistency? Nighthawk is doing what he did in the Supreme Power universe; just on a larger scale. the others, except maybe Thundra, were very by-the-book superheroes. none of them were mass murderers; which would disqualify them from judging Namor.

[Mr MajestiK]

one could argue that. but it'd be an immensely weak argument when you factor in Namor saying that he was proud of his actions; to T'challa. if you think the Squadron are hypocrites, present your case. where is the moral inconsistency? Nighthawk is doing what he did in the Supreme Power universe; just on a larger scale. the others, except maybe Thundra, were very by-the-book superheroes. none of them were mass murderers; which would disqualify them from judging Namor.

Very solid post.

[CentralPower]

I just don't think you can make high concept work without first making the characters sympathetic or, at least, interesting. if the writer thought that them killing Namor was unjustified, he shouldn't have done it. because it seeps through in his writing.

For a high concept story, the characters should be what they need to be. The Squadron should be shown to have good motives, but they need not be sympathetic.

There is no problem with a writer writing characters to do things that the writer thinks are wrong. In this case, the Squadron are not supposed to be clearly right.

if you think the Squadron are hypocrites, present your case.

It depends on what the offense that they are punishing Namor for is. In the first issue, it is specified that one of the reasons that the Squadron attacks Atlantis is that the Atlanteans have threatened the surface world so many times.