Squadron Supreme #13

[Reviresco]

Jim Hammond's a hypocrite. he's gungho about arresting the Squadron. where was he when Namor was killing the Wakandans? and who is he to complain about heroes fighting one another? it's literally how we met him. I can forgive Toro for being that clueless. but Jim's old as dirt. things should be a little less black and white for him, imo.

This is all incorrect or untrue.

Hammond had zero authority to arrest anyone during AvX. He wasn't a SHIELD agent. IIRC, he was hiding out, trying to keep a low profile after the horror of Remender's run on Secret Avengers. The whole "where was _fill in the blank_ during _fill in the blank_ crisis" is ridiculous in a comic discussion, and a straw man argument. And it certainly shouldn't be used in any sentence with Wakanda.

Torch and Namor first met and battled in Marvel Mystery Comics #8, so no, readers did not _literally_ meet him fighting Namor. They literally met Torch 8 or 9 issues previously, because IIRC, he also had his own comic, before that landmark battle. Readers literally meet Hammond in Marvel Comics #1, where he's created by Horton and flaming in a test tube, which had nothing to do with Namor.

Secondly, Namor was not an American hero, especially in those early Golden Age issues, so he's battling Namor as a threat to NYC, not as hero vs hero.

How is Jim Hammond as old as dirt and Toro not? Toro is OLDER than Jim Hammond. Hammond was 'born' in 1939, yes in a full grown body, but he certainly didn't "live" thru those years. Hammond also has spent most of his 'life' inactive / "dead." He went inactive after the war, and IIRC, he 'died' twice in the 50s. Was resurrected in the early 60s, to immediately 'die' again. Bryne resurrected him in the late 80s / early 90s, and he was around for a few years -- less and less with the sliding timescale -- before "dying," yet again. He was only "recently" resurrected by the Thinker in The Torch mini-series. So, with the sliding timescale, he's probably not 'lived' even ten, fifteen max, years.

Toro, OTOH, lived every minute of his many years, had a post superhero life, and was married for years. He was alive in Sub-Mariner #14 (1969 or 1970 real time) -- so he should have been 40 - 50 years old when he died. Though, of course, the sliding timeline is going to screw that up, as Subby #14 now occurs roughly 10 years ago.

Which is one reason why things probably ARE more black and white for Jim Hammond. That plus the fact that, despite his superhero name, he is NOT human. He's synthetic. If anyone is going to see things in black and white, it's going to a programmable "machine."

Was Jim Hammond even being used during the whole Civil War/AvX thing?

I remember Invaders and Avengers, but that's about it.

Given his history he should be against violence against humanity in general.

I don't know. but he's been an active member of SHIELD since before the Fantastic Four disappeared.

You mean right after Secret War, like 8 months ago in comic time? That was no where near the time of AvX.

Jim Hammond was dead during Civil War and comatose during AvX. He went offline in Secret Avengers #25, #26-#28 were AvX tie-ins, he was repaired in #35. Couldn't do anything about Namor.

As every single character in the MU couldn't either.

he can read a newspaper. and I'm not against him trying to bring the Squadron to justice. but he speaks to them as if they weren't doing what he did to Hitler.

Again, just as EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in the MU could read a newspaper, as well as every single government and enforcement agency ... and did nothing.

Hammond killing Hitler is completely different from what the SS did to Namor and Atlantis. Comparing those two acts is simply ridiculous.

[Namor'sWrath]

I wonder, did Jim Hammond set fire to the entirety of Germany? Because that's what the SS did to Atlantis. I wonder if all those Atlantean children who Hyperion murdered thought the SS were justified.

[Michael Watkins]

How is Jim Hammond as old as dirt and Toro not?

they are both as old as dirt. happy?

Which is one reason why things probably ARE more black and white for Jim Hammond. That plus the fact that, despite his superhero name, he is NOT human. He's synthetic. If anyone is going to see things in black and white, it's going to a programmable "machine."

dumbest excuse ever.

Hammond killing Hitler is completely different from what the SS did to Namor and Atlantis. Comparing those two acts is simply ridiculous.

I just made the comparison. and they are entirely the same. the Squadron took out an unrepentant killer. Hammond executed one in a bunker. Hammond's a hypocrite. if he were really a friend, he'd take Namor to task for acting like a villain for the past few years.

[Michael Watkins]

I wonder, did Jim Hammond set fire to the entirety of Germany? Because that's what the SS did to Atlantis. I wonder if all those Atlantean children who Hyperion murdered thought the SS were justified.

did the Squadron set fire to the entirety of the ocean? the broke up some shabby real estate the that Atlanteans were squatting on; without killing anyone who didn't have it coming. you think Hammond and the Allied Forces didn't singe some innocents?

[Michael Watkins]

For a high concept story, the characters should be what they need to be. The Squadron should be shown to have good motives, but they need not be sympathetic.

There is no problem with a writer writing characters to do things that the writer thinks are wrong. In this case, the Squadron are not supposed to be clearly right.

what I'm getting at is that they are right. they were simply avenging the destruction of a world in a, comparatively, tame way. but the writer isn't on their side. so the focus has been entirely on a pretty crappy moral dilemma. how could anyone not expect consequences from destroying a world? why are the Squadron depicted as the bad guy when the Avengers just let that stuff slide? if they wanted to tell this story, it should have been them beheading Black Bolt and finding out later that he had nothing to do with carnage.

It depends on what the offense that they are punishing Namor for is. In the first issue, it is specified that one of the reasons that the Squadron attacks Atlantis is that the Atlanteans have threatened the surface world so many times.

they have. the Squadron were going by the information they gathered once arriving in a new world. the United States has done murkier stuff post-911.

[Namor'sWrath]

did the Squadron set fire to the entirety of the ocean? the broke up some shabby real estate the that Atlanteans were squatting on; without killing anyone who didn't have it coming. you think Hammond and the Allied Forces didn't singe some innocents?

That's hilarious.

[Michael Watkins]

That's hilarious.

it's also canon. but I do agree that them falling so easily was hilarious. good thing Wakanda never retaliated.

[Reviresco]

they are both as old as dirt. happy?

Why would I be happy with you posting totally incorrect information yet again? Ten years old is NOT old as dirt. Toro, at age 40+ is NOT old as dirt either. Your erroneous correlation between Toro and Jim Hammond and their ages is wrong. Actually, your whole point about Jim Hammond is wrong and totally unsupported, but it appears you don't want to admit that.

dumbest excuse ever.

???

Nothing in that post was in any form an excuse. How is a point by point rebuttal to your error ridden post an excuse? Were you just ignorant of the fact that Hammond is synthetic -- or do you just not understand how 'machine logic' is treated in fiction?

I just made the comparison. and they are entirely the same.

No, they are not. Read a history book about Hitler, if you can't distinguish the myriad differences.

the Squadron took out an unrepentant killer. Hammond executed one in a bunker.

No, Namor is NOT an unrepentant killer. This has been shown repeatedly in comics.

Again, read a history book about Hitler. The reason Hammond killed Hitler wasn't because he was an unrepentant killer.

And read SS #1. They didn't execute Namor for that reason either. Plus, they did more than kill Namor. There's yet another difference, so there's one of many ways it isn't the same.

Hammond's a hypocrite. if he were really a friend, he'd take Namor to task for acting like a villain for the past few years.

No, Hammond isn't a hypocrite at all. Everything you said about him was wrong. Namor and Jim's friendship has nothing to do with your false claim about Hammond, much like your previous attempt to make him responsible for Namor after AvX.

[Namor'sWrath]

it's also canon. but I do agree that them falling so easily was hilarious. good thing Wakanda never retaliated.

Is this you admitting that you never read Hickman's run? Because this is so wrong.

[Reviresco]

I wonder, did Jim Hammond set fire to the entirety of Germany? Because that's what the SS did to Atlantis. I wonder if all those Atlantean children who Hyperion murdered thought the SS were justified.

did the Squadron set fire to the entirety of the ocean? the broke up some shabby real estate the that Atlanteans were squatting on; without killing anyone who didn't have it coming. you think Hammond and the Allied Forces didn't singe some innocents?

That's hilarious.

It really is. When it isn't scary.

Haters gonna hate -- and just make up stuff. LOL!

it's also canon. but I do agree that them falling so easily was hilarious. good thing Wakanda never retaliated.

??? Wut? Have actually read any comics with Namor or Wakanda?

[Michael Watkins]

Why would I be happy with you posting totally incorrect information yet again? Ten years old is NOT old as dirt. Toro, at age 40+ is NOT old as dirt either. Your erroneous correlation between Toro and Jim Hammond and their ages is wrong. Actually, your whole point about Jim Hammond is wrong and totally unsupported, but it appears you don't want to admit that..

Namor is 10? what are you even talking about?

Nothing in that post was in any form an excuse. How is a point by point rebuttal to your error ridden post an excuse? Were you just ignorant of the fact that Hammond is synthetic -- or do you just not understand how 'machine logic' is treated in fiction?.

I have at least half of Namor's 90s run and all of Ostrander's Heroes 4 Hire series. you brought up him being synthetic why? the entire point of his character is that he's just as human as everyone else. there was nothing overly logical about his decision making ability in either series. would you like to contest that?

No, they are not. Read a history book about Hitler, if you can't distinguish the myriad differences..

observe context. Hammond didn't kill real hitler. he killed comic book hitler. Namor is an unrepentant mass murderer. these are the facts. if Namor had pulled that crap on the Allied Forces, would Hammond have attacked him or what?

No, Namor is NOT an unrepentant killer. This has been shown repeatedly in comics..

false

No, Hammond isn't a hypocrite at all. Everything you said about him was wrong. Namor and Jim's friendship has nothing to do with your false claim about Hammond, much like your previous attempt to make him responsible for Namor after AvX.

tag someone else in if you're not capable of a rational discussion. or, better yet, agree to disagree. there's no upside in me convincing a namor fan that they worship a monster.

[Michael Watkins]

??? Wut? Have actually read any comics with Namor or Wakanda?

if they had really retaliated, the Squadron wouldn't have had to play clean up.

[Reviresco]

if they had really retaliated, the Squadron wouldn't have had to play clean up.

Ah. This is what I mean by making up stuff.

Again, read SS #1. That wasn't what the SS was doing at all.

[Reviresco]

Namor is 10? what are you even talking about?

No, where did I say Namor was ten? I specifically said, at least twice I believe, that JIM HAMMOND (which was the subject of my posts) had lived about 10 years of life. Keep up.

I have at least half of Namor's 90s run and all of Ostrander's Heroes 4 Hire series. you brought up him being synthetic why? the entire point of his character is that he's just as human as everyone else. there was nothing overly logical about his decision making ability in either series. would you like to contest that?

IOW you've only read two instances of Jim Hammond, none of his Golden Age stuff, or even Saga, and nothing actually from the last twenty years.

No, that isn't the ENTIRE point of Jim Hammond. There's plenty of aspects to the character, and plenty of them deal with him reconciling his machine "self," machines, and his "humanity" and quest for it. I brought up synthetic in response to your erroneous claim that Jim didn't get to make black and white choices. Because at it's core, AI starts with binary, simple black and white choices.

observe context. Hammond didn't kill real hitler. he killed comic book hitler. Namor is an unrepentant mass murderer. these are the facts. if Namor had pulled that crap on the Allied Forces, would Hammond have attacked him or what?

What context? You are completely stripping everything of context and simply making up stuff and ignoring what IS in the comics. There's no context for that.

The reasonS Torch killed Hitler is both in the comics and in history.

Seriously? You bring up a comic where Namor and Torch fought first, and you don't even know what it was about?

And no, Namor is NOT an unrepentant mass murderer. You repeatedly saying it isn't going to make it true.

false

No, it is completely true. As we saw repeatedly in Hickman's run, Avengers World, AvX Consequences, etc. Just because you want to ignore what actually occurs in the comics, it doesn't make it false.

tag someone else in if you're not capable of a rational discussion. or, better yet, agree to disagree. there's no upside in me convincing a namor fan that they worship a monster.

LOL! Of course, if you can't respond to logical rebuttals about a wholly different character, attack the person making them and drag one of their favorites into the discussion.

[Conn Seanery]

This argument had better get a lot more civil on both sides, otherwise I foresee a couple of vacations in your future.