Squadron Supreme #13

[LordLeviathan]

as individuals or as a team? they are from different destroyed realities.

by their actions. what gives them the right to destroy a nation?

[DurararaFTW]

if Namor had pulled that crap on the Allied Forces, would Hammond have attacked him or what?

Pretty sure Namor has attacked America a few times and Hammond, and other superheroes didn't then wait till a time of peace to go to Atlantis, murder Namor in cold blood and maroon his people.

[Sandy Hausler]

Why would I be happy with you posting totally incorrect information yet again? Ten years old is NOT old as dirt. Toro, at age 40+ is NOT old as dirt either. Your erroneous correlation between Toro and Jim Hammond and their ages is wrong. Actually, your whole point about Jim Hammond is wrong and totally unsupported, but it appears you don't want to admit that.

Unless there has been some time line changes in the past few years or you are talking about a different Toro, Toro is actually older than Torch. The Torch was created in 1939. Toro was a kid at that time, but he was certainly born before 1939. He is 40+, as you say, but that plus constitutes over forty years.

Sandy Hausler

[CentralPower]

Toro, OTOH, lived every minute of his many years, had a post superhero life, and was married for years. He was alive in Sub-Mariner #14 (1969 or 1970 real time) -- so he should have been 40 - 50 years old when he died. Though, of course, the sliding timeline is going to screw that up, as Subby #14 now occurs roughly 10 years ago.

Toro should be dead, either from time or being killed by the Thinker. But, the stupid way he came back bent time even more than the sliding Marvel timescale. Do not expect Toro's age to make sense. When you look at Toro, and find yourself weighed down by all of the baggage, just tell yourself "some dumb **** went down", and move on. (Not defending the fact that Toro is around again. But, it ain't Robinson's fault.)

Which is one reason why things probably ARE more black and white for Jim Hammond. That plus the fact that, despite his superhero name, he is NOT human. He's synthetic. If anyone is going to see things in black and white, it's going to a programmable "machine."

The real reason is that Robinson was using the Torch to voice the common complaint about Marvel, which is that the heroes are often attacking each other rather than fighting the bad guys. I am not sure how Robinson actually feels about this. But, he needed somebody to make the point on page.

what I'm getting at is that they are right. they were simply avenging the destruction of a world in a, comparatively, tame way. but the writer isn't on their side. so the focus has been entirely on a pretty crappy moral dilemma. how could anyone not expect consequences from destroying a world? why are the Squadron depicted as the bad guy when the Avengers just let that stuff slide? if they wanted to tell this story, it should have been them beheading Black Bolt and finding out later that he had nothing to do with carnage.

A big problem with the Squadron is that so much of it is calling back to a time (right before "Secret Wars") that is "blurry". It is not even entirely clear what has happened. Some characters remember what happened, other do not. The events were likely over-written.

Robinson could have gotten an arc or two out of the question of when somebody should be blamed. (Is it fair to blame somebody for something that they remember, even if the event ended up not happen\ing? Can somebody be blamed for something that happened, by somebody who remembers, if they do not remember, or if the event were functionally nullified?) If nothing else, this would work with themes of power and its correct use, which characterize the better Squadron appearances.

[Reviresco]

Unless there has been some time line changes in the past few years or you are talking about a different Toro, Toro is actually older than Torch. The Torch was created in 1939. Toro was a kid at that time, but he was certainly born before 1939. He is 40+, as you say, but that plus constitutes over forty years.

Sandy Hausler

The 'plus' doesn't constitute another 40 years of living, because Toro died in Subby #14 and because of the sliding timeline. It's one of those events / characters that don't really fit in the sliding timeline, just like Toro's wife Ann Raymond, Betty Dean, The Whizzer, etc.

But yes, I think we are saying basically the same thing. Golden Age Torch may have played at being the older of the pair, but Toro is actually older and has lived longer than Jim Hammond with all his deactivations / deaths. See below.

How is Jim Hammond as old as dirt and Toro not? Toro is OLDER than Jim Hammond. Hammond was 'born' in 1939, yes in a full grown body, but he certainly didn't "live" thru those years. Hammond also has spent most of his 'life' inactive / "dead." He went inactive after the war, and IIRC, he 'died' twice in the 50s. Was resurrected in the early 60s, to immediately 'die' again. Bryne resurrected him in the late 80s / early 90s, and he was around for a few years -- less and less with the sliding timescale -- before "dying," yet again. He was only "recently" resurrected by the Thinker in The Torch mini-series. So, with the sliding timescale, he's probably not 'lived' even ten, fifteen max, years.

Toro, OTOH, lived every minute of his many years, had a post superhero life, and was married for years. He was alive in Sub-Mariner #14 (1969 or 1970 real time) -- so he should have been 40 - 50 years old when he died. Though, of course, the sliding timeline is going to screw that up, as Subby #14 now occurs roughly 10 years ago.

[Reviresco]

Toro should be dead, either from time or being killed by the Thinker. But, the stupid way he came back bent time even more than the sliding Marvel timescale. Do not expect Toro's age to make sense. When you look at Toro, and find yourself weighed down by all of the baggage, just tell yourself "some dumb **** went down", and move on. (Not defending the fact that Toro is around again. But, it ain't Robinson's fault.)

I didn't find the way Toro came back (Cosmic Cube) any more stupid than most other resurrections. I'm not sure how it is suppose to mess up his age -- unless it made his physical body substantially younger. We know his memory is still that of a 40+ year old, because he knew all about Anne Raymond.

It is the sliding timescale that screws up Toro's age, as it does any 'human' character (without an age negating excuse) that is intrinsically tied to WWII.

And no, it isn't Robinson's fault, at all. I don't think I ever said or implied that.

The real reason is that Robinson was using the Torch to voice the common complaint about Marvel, which is that the heroes are often attacking each other rather than fighting the bad guys. I am not sure how Robinson actually feels about this. But, he needed somebody to make the point on page.

Sure. All the crap and inconsistencies thrown on characters is by authorial intent. But even using him as a readers voice, that doesn't make Jim Hammond a hypocrite as someone else insisted.

[Reviresco]

Pretty sure Namor has attacked America a few times and Hammond, and other superheroes didn't then wait till a time of peace to go to Atlantis, murder Namor in cold blood and maroon his people.

Exactly.


10101010

[Reviresco]

and aren't the Squadron the bigger hypocrites?

Yes, the SS are blatantly the biggest hypocrites in the book. They announce they will do ANYTHING to keep the earth safe. And then they go and murder the one person who actually did ANYTHING to keep the earth safe. Actually uncounted worlds safe. That's pretty much the definition of hypocrisy right there.

And their excuse for killing the Atlanteans? There's not a single incident where the Atlanteans threatened the Earth. They might have threatened some surface breathers, but they the planet? Nope. Quite the opposite. They've gone out of their way to ensure the safety of the planet. The surface breathers are the ones causing global climate change, polluting the air and waters, detonating nuclear weapons and threatening each other with mutual nuclear destruction.

[Phoenixx9]

Originally, Marvel said Toro died in the 1950's.

But, wasn't he really alive in the 1990's, seen in West Coast Avengers?

Has he since died and been returned? I think I may have missed something.

[Michael Watkins]

by their actions. what gives them the right to destroy a nation?

they have the power to do so. it's the same "right" that pretty much every other superhero exercises when they play vigilante.

[Michael Watkins]

Pretty sure Namor has attacked America a few times and Hammond, and other superheroes didn't then wait till a time of peace to go to Atlantis, murder Namor in cold blood and maroon his people.

and that's a failure on the part of those other heroes. the Squadron didn't kill anyone in cold blood. the blood was very hot. Spectrum kicked his head like a football. this was a bin laden situation.

[DurararaFTW]

and that's a failure on the part of those other heroes. the Squadron didn't kill anyone in cold blood. the blood was very hot. Spectrum kicked his head like a football. this was a bin laden situation.

Namor attacked Wakanda while possessed by the Phoenix. And when Spectrum's world was destroyed it saved both his universe AND hers. Because Spectrum's guys weren't willing to come together and help think of a different solution when Reed Richards asked. Because of Namor, Reed Richards was able to keep going and save all of reality from the incursions. I do not see a Bin Laden parallel here. And it was cold blooded. Hyperion waited months before deciding to pull this stunt.

[CentralPower]

I didn't find the way Toro came back (Cosmic Cube) any more stupid than most other resurrections. I'm not sure how it is suppose to mess up his age -- unless it made his physical body substantially younger.

I am not defending other resurrections, particularly the back-written resurrections. (Planned resurrections are more tolerable, if not always okay.)

But, yeah, "brought back from the dead with a Cosmis Cube" more or less sorts out any age questions. ("brought back from the dead with a Cosmic Cube"...)

And their excuse for killing the Atlanteans? There's not a single incident where the Atlanteans threatened the Earth. They might have threatened some surface breathers, but they the planet? Nope. Quite the opposite.

But, the Squadron would likely take the side of the air-breathing population. (Robinson is not necessarily saying that they would be right. But, it would make sense for the Squadron to do that.)

And, most surface breathers living on Marvel world would probably be happy to see the end of Atlantis. How many times have the fishy-folk attacked the surface world?

they have the power to do so. it's the same "right" that pretty much every other superhero exercises when they play vigilante.

And, that relates to what the Squadron as supposed to be. (The whole point of the Squadron is supposed to be "good intentions and too much power are not always a good mix".)

Namor attacked Wakanda while possessed by the Phoenix. And when Spectrum's world was destroyed it saved both his universe AND hers. Because Spectrum's guys weren't willing to come together and help think of a different solution when Reed Richards asked. Because of Namor, Reed Richards was able to keep going and save all of reality from the incursions.

It was not a question of the Great Society not being willing to work with the Avengers. Nobody had any workable plans.

The point of Hickman's run is that there was no way out. There was no clever workaround. There was no winning. During an incursion, either one world would be destroyed, or two universes would be destroyed. (Even the destruction avoided by the use of an Infinity Gauntlet or a Wishing Box was only delayed.)

Doom played a greater role than Namor in terms of saving existence. Reed was only able to do anything because he had the Molecule Man's help.

[chaosfist]

Namor attacked Wakanda while possessed by the Phoenix. And when Spectrum's world was destroyed it saved both his universe AND hers. Because Spectrum's guys weren't willing to come together and help think of a different solution when Reed Richards asked. Because of Namor, Reed Richards was able to keep going and save all of reality from the incursions. I do not see a Bin Laden parallel here. And it was cold blooded. Hyperion waited months before deciding to pull this stunt.

It saved nothing. Everything still died. The only things saved were saved by Victor Von Doom. The FF are rebuilding the multiverse but that doesn't mean Namor saved anything. What should they have done accepted the death of their planet because the 616 said so? Namor has been a monster for awhile now and deserved to die.

[XPac]

It saved nothing. Everything still died. The only things saved were saved by Victor Von Doom. The FF are rebuilding the multiverse but that doesn't mean Namor saved anything. What should they have done accepted the death of their planet because the 616 said so? Namor has been a monster for awhile now and deserved to die.

Course, if Doom had died in the incursion that Namor prevented, Doom wouldn't have been able to save anything. And if Reed and T'Challa had died in that incursion, they wouldn't be alive to stop Doom.

Bottom line is Namor's actions were necessary. What happened needed to happen in order for the multiverse to survive the Beyonders.