Squadron Supreme #13

[Mr MajestiK]

Namor attacked Wakanda while possessed by the Phoenix. And when Spectrum's world was destroyed it saved both his universe AND hers. Because Spectrum's guys weren't willing to come together and help think of a different solution when Reed Richards asked. Because of Namor, Reed Richards was able to keep going and save all of reality from the incursions. I do not see a Bin Laden parallel here. And it was cold blooded. Hyperion waited months before deciding to pull this stunt.

Was Namor "possessed" when he lamented that he hadn't killed enough Wakandans?

[Michael Watkins]

Was Namor "possessed" when he lamented that he hadn't killed enough Wakandans?

exactly! how do you argue with the murderer's own admission?

[Michael Watkins]

Namor attacked Wakanda while possessed by the Phoenix. And when Spectrum's world was destroyed it saved both his universe AND hers. Because Spectrum's guys weren't willing to come together and help think of a different solution when Reed Richards asked. Because of Namor, Reed Richards was able to keep going and save all of reality from the incursions. I do not see a Bin Laden parallel here. And it was cold blooded. Hyperion waited months before deciding to pull this stunt.

1) The Great Society chose to not destroy another world. it was a decidedly noble decision. it's the one that the non-bloodthirsty side of the Illuminati would have made; if it hadn't been made for them by Namor. spin it how you like, Namor joined with a bunch of spree-killers to fail at his goal of saving his world. he admitted that he had failed when he went begging Doom for help. I've had this argument with others; many times, at this point. you're not going to convince me that Namor was in the right. he did not have a plan; just a dumb animal trying to stave off his own death.

2) I don't think the Bin Laden parallel was all that subtle.

[Michael Watkins]

Course, if Doom had died in the incursion that Namor prevented, Doom wouldn't have been able to save anything. And if Reed and T'Challa had died in that incursion, they wouldn't be alive to stop Doom.

Bottom line is Namor's actions were necessary. What happened needed to happen in order for the multiverse to survive the Beyonders.

you can't say that at all. the chances of Doom allowing himself to be taken out in that fashion are extremely slim (see: Masters of Doom, Planet Doom, Heroes Reborn, etc). he has a time machine. his plan involved time manipulation. and he was already working on a solution when Namor came to him; indicating that he wasn't as clueless as the others thought.

[Mr MajestiK]

exactly! how do you argue with the murderer's own admission?

Some would argue that Namor angered by the utter destruction of Atlantis by Wakanda that led on from Namor's own attack on Wakanda in the first place, just wanted to hurt T'Challa on a psychological level.

Either way, he made it quite clear that he had ZERO regrets for his genocidal attack on Wakanda regardless of whether he was under the PF's influence or not.

[XPac]

you can't say that at all. the chances of Doom allowing himself to be taken out in that fashion are extremely slim (see: Masters of Doom, Planet Doom, Heroes Reborn, etc). he has a time machine. his plan involved time manipulation. and he was already working on a solution when Namor came to him; indicating that he wasn't as clueless as the others thought.

Sure, I'm well aware Doom had a time machine. Problem being he wasn't traveling back in time the exact moment the incursion was taking place, so he would have died just like everyone else. He did in fact travel back in time but that was well after Namor stopped that incursion.

Doom may well have been working on a sollution when Namor came to him... but that sollution didn't come fast enough to stop the Great Society incursion that Namor stopped. I'll say again... what he did was necessary. No other option was presented by that particular point in the story.

[Namor'sWrath]

Was Namor "possessed" when he lamented that he hadn't killed enough Wakandans?

It was pretty obvious (to me at least) that Namor was trying to get under T'challa's skin. T'challa had just sucker punched him, and anyone who read AvX: Consequences knows that Namor did, in fact, feel guilt about what he had done.

Now, whether or not you ignore that evidence is entirely up to you.

[Michael Watkins]

Sure, I'm well aware Doom had a time machine. Problem being he wasn't traveling back in time the exact moment the incursion was taking place, so he would have died just like everyone else.

neither of us knows what would have happened. maybe some other world's Reed Richards would have rebuilt everything; like current one is. like who saved the Maker? either way, Namor is a murderer. he stood by while Terrax and Thanos tortured people. and let's not forget that his former compatriots tried to kill him. if Namor wasn't guilty of something, why did that happen? people are getting on the Squadron's case because the other Atlanteans were involved. that was a parallel to our real world 'shock and awe' attacks; post 911. the difference is that none of the Atlanteans were killed; according to the book. all they did was destroy some property. for contrast, how many people do you think Namor has accidentally drowned, in the past. why he was even considered a hero is beyond me.

[Namor'sWrath]

neither of us knows what would have happened. maybe some other world's Reed Richards would have rebuilt everything; like current one is. like who saved the Maker? either way, Namor is a murderer. he stood by while Terrax and Thanos tortured people. and let's not forget that his former compatriots tried to kill him. if Namor wasn't guilty of something, why did that happen? people are getting on the Squadron's case because the other Atlanteans were involved. that was a parallel to our real world 'shock and awe' attacks; post 911. the difference is that none of the Atlanteans were killed; according to the book. all they did was destroy some property. for contrast, how many people do you think Namor has accidentally drowned, in the past. why he was even considered a hero is beyond me.

Does the book actually say that no Atlanteans were killed? Because I'm pretty sure Hyperion just says he gave them time to run.

[DurararaFTW]

Was Namor "possessed" when he lamented that he hadn't killed enough Wakandans?

I don't massively care. The Phoenix Five weren't giving the Phoenix Force enough credit in terms of how much it was effecting, which is why all of them, even guys that spend all their time as a superhero like Colossus and Cyclops needed to be stopped. Namor can go one step further and deny it's very existence if he wants, he's wrong.

1) The Great Society chose to not destroy another world. it was a decidedly noble decision. it's the one that the non-bloodthirsty side of the Illuminati would have made; if it hadn't been made for them by Namor. spin it how you like, Namor joined with a bunch of spree-killers to fail at his goal of saving his world. he admitted that he had failed when he went begging Doom for help. I've had this argument with others; many times, at this point. you're not going to convince me that Namor was in the right. he did not have a plan; just a dumb animal trying to stave off his own death.

Doom was alive because of what Namor did, so was Reed, so was our version of the Molecule Man. I don't claim he saved the multiverse by himself or that he was the mastermind or that he did not need help. But what those men did would not have been possible without him being willing to kill worlds in the meantime.

neither of us knows what would have happened. maybe some other world's Reed Richards would have rebuilt everything; like current one is. like who saved the Maker?

The multiverse did not have a massive supply of Reed Richards and Doctor Dooms left in Hickman's story. If Namor had just let the Great Society destroy the 616 universe along with their own there is little reason to believe there'd be any hope left.

[Michael Watkins]

I don't massively care. The Phoenix Five weren't giving the Phoenix Force enough credit in terms of how much it was effecting, which is why all of them, even guys that spend all their time as a superhero like Colossus and Cyclops needed to be stopped. Namor can go one step further and deny it's very existence if he wants, he's wrong.



Doom was alive because of what Namor did, so was Reed, so was our version of the Molecule Man. I don't claim he saved the multiverse by himself or that he was the mastermind or that he did not need help. But what those men did would not have been possible without him being willing to kill worlds in the meantime.



The multiverse did not have a massive supply of Reed Richards and Doctor Dooms left in Hickman's story. If Namor had just let the Great Society destroy the 616 universe along with their own there is little reason to believe there'd be any hope left.

The Great Society wouldn't have destroyed anything. it would have been nature taking its course. and, since you don't massively care, there's no point in discussing it.

[XPac]

neither of us knows what would have happened. maybe some other world's Reed Richards would have rebuilt everything; like current one is. like who saved the Maker? either way, Namor is a murderer. he stood by while Terrax and Thanos tortured people. and let's not forget that his former compatriots tried to kill him. if Namor wasn't guilty of something, why did that happen? people are getting on the Squadron's case because the other Atlanteans were involved. that was a parallel to our real world 'shock and awe' attacks; post 911. the difference is that none of the Atlanteans were killed; according to the book. all they did was destroy some property. for contrast, how many people do you think Namor has accidentally drowned, in the past. why he was even considered a hero is beyond me.

Oh he's defiantly a murderer. But the trade off is that his acts of murder allowed the people who ultimately saved and restored the multiverse to survive and restore everything else . So it worked out for the best.

[LordLeviathan]

Does the book actually say that no Atlanteans were killed? Because I'm pretty sure Hyperion just says he gave them time to run.

Aren't they lying to themselves to sugarcoat their deeds?
I'm still sure quite a LOT have died in the attack (those unable or unwilling to go, starvation and disease due to a collapsed infra structure, not to mention they might have caused a civil war in atlantis due to power vacuum they created)

[Michael Watkins]

Oh he's defiantly a murderer. But the trade off is that his acts of murder allowed the people who ultimately saved and restored the multiverse to survive and restore everything else . So it worked out for the best.

and Gwen Stacy's death allowed Peter to connect with Mary Jane. what's your point?

[Michael Watkins]

Aren't they lying to themselves to sugarcoat their deeds?

like someone telling themselves that it is for the greater good to recruit a galactic serial killer and his posse to go on a killing spree; throughout the universe?