After reading the Batgirl February solicit I believe this character is ruined

[Rakzo]

I have mentioned this several times in the past but I wasn't really a fan of Simone's run on Batgirl. Is not only because of the overly-dark (and apparently mandated) direction her stories took, the problem is that her stories were simply not really well-written. Many of her writing ticks started to become quite evident here like the overly-forced dialogue that at times tried too hard be funny, overwritten narration and her own insistence of making Barbara's character completely dependant on the Killing Joke by including villains being created solely to support such theme and several flashbacks to the event (the worst being the one she got in her cameo during Simone's The Movement series which was a completely different book). Babs barely had any personality beyond that during Simone's tenure.

This is the reason why I liked Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr's run so much. The first thing they did was make Babs overcome all of her previous traumas and move forward, the lighthearted tone along with Tarr's gorgeous artwork were also welcomed after the last dark era.

To be honest, I'm not a really a fan of Larson's work so far. Is just decent at best since her stories nor characterization are particularly engaging, the opening arc was pretty forgettable in fact despite that it introduced a lot of characters and villains (None of them were really memorable). The best part of the series is Albuquerque's artwork but even him is not enough to make the book great.

I hope that Batgirl receives a new and interesting direction one way or another soon since there's a lot of potential for new stories starring her.

[Babs]

There is difference between being lighthearted and disrespecting a character or turning them into something they are not.
Is funny you mention The Batman, Year One and Btas because those are lighthearted but not the cartoonish joke Burnside turned her into and she is at different stages of her life and is well rounded character in them and her character grows in them especially in Btas. Not to mention not wearing ugly ass suit. Barabara shown in all those three works is way more mature and balanced character then ever shown in Burnside one.

This comic Barbara went through growth and rebooting the character and healing her spine doesn't mean striping her of any growth she had. AT least Gail was trying to keep that in mind. They striped her of her age and not just in numbers but in behavior and look, they striped her of her experinces (The bat boys maintained theirs) and give her cheap ass villains, they took any weight and gravitas she suppose to have and pretty much giving it to Batwoman.

Barbara Gordon went from well-rounded mature character who had sense of humor and a real important place in the Batfamily to an instrument of pandering gimmick. Is sad and upsetting that they treat one of their best females like this.

Spare me the lighthearted excuse bs I keep seeing to justify the Burnside disaster.

I would agree with a lot of what you're saying, but not when there's such a massive angry disgruntled salty attitude attached to it.
As i said before, i believe Burnside happened because Gail Simone's run was so gritty and dramatic that it caused a rubber hammer effect. Was it too cartoony? Yes. Was the shift in tone overdone? Probably. Is it worth being this salty, hateful, and disgruntled about it? Hell no!

Going from the lighthearted fun Stephanie Brown to New52 gritty drama Barbara was the real disaster, IMHO. Simone's run was unreadable for anyone who liked Barbara as Batgirl in the 90's cartoons and Year One book, and specially after coming off of Stephanie's book. As i also said, after about 20 issues, i was pretty sad about it, and really didn't like that they sacrificed the friendly and fun Stephanie Batgirl for whatever this endless pile of grimdark nonsense was.
DC pulled all of their books into the gritty darkness route when they started the New52, and it simply doesn't work for all of their characters.
Simone's Barbara in the new 52 did not have the strength of character, the wisdom, or the confidence of Oracle, and i remember plenty people complaining that this version of Barbara Gordon was unrecognizable as herself.

There's one thing i've learned growing up reading comics... With every change they make, there will always be fans who act outraged and entitled like this. People who don't like changes, and claim a character is completely misrepresented, disrespected, and destroyed in the newest incarnation, and that because they don't like it, that means it should not be. That's why i referred to Comicbook Guy from the Simpsons. Because that's exactly how you're acting right now.

[Atlanta96]

I would agree with a lot of what you're saying, but not when there's such a massive angry disgruntled salty attitude attached to it.
As i said before, i believe Burnside happened because Gail Simone's run was so gritty and dramatic that it caused a rubber hammer effect. Was it too cartoony? Yes. Was the shift in tone overdone? Probably. Is it worth being this salty, hateful, and disgruntled about it? Hell no!

Going from the lighthearted fun Stephanie Brown to New52 gritty drama Barbara was the real disaster, IMHO. Simone's run was unreadable for anyone who liked Barbara as Batgirl in the 90's cartoons and Year One book, and specially after coming off of Stephanie's book. As i also said, after about 20 issues, i was pretty sad about it, and really didn't like that they sacrificed the friendly and fun Stephanie Batgirl for whatever this endless pile of grimdark nonsense was.
DC pulled all of their books into the gritty darkness route when they started the New52, and it simply doesn't work for all of their characters.
Simone's Barbara in the new 52 did not have the strength of character, the wisdom, or the confidence of Oracle, and i remember plenty people complaining that this version of Barbara Gordon was unrecognizable as herself.

There's one thing i've learned growing up reading comics... With every change they make, there will always be fans who act outraged and entitled like this. People who don't like changes, and claim a character is completely misrepresented, disrespected, and destroyed in the newest incarnation, and that because they don't like it, that means it should not be. That's why i referred to Comicbook Guy from the Simpsons. Because that's exactly how you're acting right now.

As discussed a few pages ago, the sales charts back up the idea that this isn't the right direction for Babs. If the series was still a massive hit and I was demanding it be changed because I disliked it (something that other readers do constantly) that could be entitlement. But it's not entitlement if the majority of fans agree with the sentiment, in that case we're advocating for the readership as a whole.

I dislike current Babs, enough readers agree with me to drop the book in large numbers, they should totally ditch this direction for the character because the ever important sales figures say so.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Burnside ranks up there as my favorite Batgirl run ever. Larson's run is still in its early stages, but right now it's only below Miller's run and Burnside.

[Frontier]

Y'know, it would've been interesting to see Dixon write a Barbara Gordon Batgirl ongoing back in the day.

I feel like, especially after writing Batgirl: Year One, he would've been able to write a Babs as Batgirl who would've been very well-rounded and balanced compared to the two extremes fans seem divided over (Simone vs. Burnside) while still keeping her as an equal and important to the rest of the Batfamily.

I also think we're kind of getting this in Birds of Prey right now.

[Rakzo]

Just to be clear, Larson's current run is definitely not on the same vein as Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr's. It lacks the same kind of energy, style, characterization, relationships and overall fun nature that were so prevalent during that era.

Larson's run is trying to be its own thing and sadly is not doing a very impressive job at it which might be the reason why so very few people talk about it.

[Frontier]

Just a reminder, while you're free to express your opinion on the current direction of Batgirl and which direction you would prefer for the character, please try and be civil and cordial with other posters about it.

[batalia]

I would agree with a lot of what you're saying, but not when there's such a massive angry disgruntled salty attitude attached to it.

Yeah, maybe you should skip on comic books for a while and focus on self-improvement, because that's some pretty creepy and unhealthy ideas you have there.

Just a reminder, while you're free to express your opinion on the current direction of Batgirl and which direction you would prefer for the character, please try and be civil and cordial with other posters about it.

That was total cordial and respectful to me I guess. I don't see anything delete worthy in my post if you don't see anything wrong with these bitchy comments.

[JasonTodd428]

There's one thing i've learned growing up reading comics... With every change they make, there will always be fans who act outraged and entitled like this. People who don't like changes, and claim a character is completely misrepresented, disrespected, and destroyed in the newest incarnation, and that because they don't like it, that means it should not be. That's why i referred to Comicbook Guy from the Simpsons. Because that's exactly how you're acting right now.

I didn't realize that disliking a particular direction for a character was something that made me "enraged and entitled fan." I didn't care for either Simone's grim and gritty Batgirl or the Burnside version because neither of them come across to me as particularly balanced portrayals. I want to see a Batgirl with the strength of character, experience and confidence of Oracle, who fights villains that actually seem threatening and on her level of experience but who also has some more lighthearted adventures. So far since the reboot I have yet to see that with any of the runs thus far.

[Frontier]

I didn't realize that disliking a particular direction for a character was something that made me "enraged and entitled fan." I didn't care for either Simone's grim and gritty Batgirl or the Burnside version because neither of them come across to me as particularly balanced portrayals. I want to see a Batgirl with the strength of character, experience and confidence of Oracle, who fights villains that actually seem threatening and on her level of experience but who also has some more lighthearted adventures. So far since the reboot I have yet to see that with any of the runs thus far.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject.

[skyvolt2000]

As discussed a few pages ago, the sales charts back up the idea that this isn't the right direction for Babs. If the series was still a massive hit and I was demanding it be changed because I disliked it (something that other readers do constantly) that could be entitlement. But it's not entitlement if the majority of fans agree with the sentiment, in that case we're advocating for the readership as a whole.

I dislike current Babs, enough readers agree with me to drop the book in large numbers, they should totally ditch this direction for the character because the ever important sales figures say so.

That is books ordered not actual books someone went in and bought it.

Not everybody who bought the book or read it posts here.

Has every comic book store, ebay, midtown and other companies that deal in comics reported that nobody like this book? Or that they have not sold every copy?

Like Clementine said-this book is in its early stages. There is still time to get better.

Nothing is wrong with dropping the book for awhile.

And Duke Thomas says hi.

[Atlanta96]

That is books ordered not actual books someone went in and bought it.

Not everybody who bought the book or read it posts here.

Has every comic book store, ebay, midtown and other companies that deal in comics reported that nobody like this book? Or that they have not sold every copy?

Like Clementine said-this book is in its early stages. There is still time to get better.

Nothing is wrong with dropping the book for awhile.

And Duke Thomas says hi.

The fact that sales figures represent orders and not what customers actually bought hurts your argument more than helping it. Since less people actually took that series home than the number of copies shipped indicates. Aside from that, the Larson run is doing so poorly at the moment compared to other Rebirth titles that theres little chance it will be successful until it gets a new creative direction, which I look forward to as an old school Barbara Gordon fan.

Also, since you seem to enjoy reminding me that Duke exists, have you seen the figures for All Star Batman #3? It's quite low for a Batman book, sold a lot less copies than issue #3 of King's run or Snyder's New 52 run. That is, despite being massively successful for its first 2 issues, even compared to those other Batman series. It's almost like something in that book is discouraging people from buying it

[MajorHoy]

The fact that sales figures represent orders and not what customers actually bought hurts your argument more than helping it. Since less people actually took that series home than the number of copies shipped indicates. Aside from that, the Larson run is doing so poorly at the moment compared to other Rebirth titles that theres little chance it will be successful until it gets a new creative direction, which I look forward to as an old school Barbara Gordon fan.

By the way, do you also have all the numbers from newsstand sales here in the U.S.; from digital copies purchased; from purchases outside of Diamond (basically the rest of the world); and all the tpb waiters to confirm the idea that "nobody like this book"?

Also, since you seem to enjoy reminding me that Duke exists, have you seen the figures for All Star Batman #3? It's quite low for a Batman book, sold a lot less copies than issue #3 of King's run or Snyder's New 52 run. That is, despite being massively successful for its first 2 issues, even compared to those other Batman series. It's almost like something in that book is discouraging people from buying it

I wonder if a $4.99 cover price and the fact it has a name easily confused with an Elseworlds-type of series that was often delayed and never quite completed might be working against Snyder's All Star Batman.

[Atlanta96]

By the way, do you also have all the numbers from newsstand sales here in the U.S.; from digital copies purchased; from purchases outside of Diamond (basically the rest of the world); and all the tpb waiters to confirm the idea that "nobody like this book"?

I wonder if a $4.99 cover price and the fact it has a name easily confused with an Elseworlds-type of series that was often delayed and never quite completed might be working against Snyder's All Star Batman.

First issue sold 350k copies, though. 2nd sold 150k. There was massive interest and hype for this series at first, it certainly looks like it's the content of the book itself that's hurting sales, explaining why issue #3 lags behind the last 2 major Batman series despite issue #1 surpassing them.

Digital comic sales account for less than 10% of the market, single issues are closer to 40%. That's why the main focus is placed on floppy sales, digital is negligible. Newsstand sales are also negligible. Only thing that rivals floppies is trades, and judging by the response to Larsons run so far I'm not expecting trade sales to be much of an improvement.

Edit: My source.

IMG_7328.jpg

[MajorHoy]

First issue sold 350k copies, though. 2nd sold 150k. There was massive interest and hype for this series at first, it certainly looks like it's the content of the book itself that's hurting sales, explaining why issue #3 lags behind the last 2 major Batman series despite issue #1 surpassing them.

But you also realize that with ORDERS for books by comic book shops, first issues are normally higher for most titles, and the orders for the 2nd and 3rd issues are placed even before any actual customers have bought and read issue #1?
Shops also had options for ordering many of these books and RETURNING UNSOLD COPIES for the first few issues, didn't they?
And remember, your chart at the bottom keeps referring to "estimates" and also says what is not included in them.
Bottom line, these numbers are really based more on what dealers think they can handle along with everything else they'll have to order / pay for in advance, not necessarily what the actual demand turns out to be in the long run.