Spider-Man "needing" the Avengers is disgusting

[powerpackers90]

The Avengers did need Spider-Man's popularity to boost them among the marvel readers, but after the successfull movies I would argue that the inclusion of Spidey is no longer that vital. I would much prefer Spider-Man having a team of some spider themed chars like: Silk, Scarlet Spider(Kain), Firestar, Silver Sable for example.

The fact the news that Spidey was going to be in Cap 3 basically stole everyone else's thunder. I think that show that even on the movie side they needed him.

[SilverSpider]

The fact the news that Spidey was going to be in Cap 3 basically stole everyone else's thunder. I think that show that even on the movie side they needed him.

Yeah I didn't realized he had that effect on the movies aswell. I'll concede to your point.
Atleast the movies did a much better job on teenage Spider-Man than ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.

[Frontier]

Yeah I didn't realized he had that effect on the movies aswell. I'll concede to your point.
Atleast the movies did a much better job on teenage Spider-Man than ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.

Though they still seem to be setting him up as Tony Stark's sidekick...

[MyLittleXero]

Though they still seem to be setting him up as Tony Stark's sidekick...

No they're setting up as someone who needs ti prove himself to get his start.

[comicscollector]

Unless you don't count the events of OMD, BND, and Superior Spider-man, then yeah you can say Spidey's the heart and Soul of Marvel.

Except,in OMD it was actually Mary Jane that made the deal and more important than that this was a deus ex story to replace a old status quo that was lasting for over twenty years in the stories.Dont see how a character gets to be less great due a editorially decision.Would be as saying that Iron Man is a worst character due the Heroes reborn event from way back in 1996.
In Superior Spider-Man,it was not Spider-Man but actually Doctor Octopus controlling Spider-Man body,its like saying Captain America is a worst character because Red Skull switched his mind with Captain America around the 115 th issue of Captain America.
And with BND,unless a character being a bachelor or fighting new villains is bad (?!) then dunno what the complaints about BND are about.

[SilverSpider]

Though they still seem to be setting him up as Tony Stark's sidekick...

That is slightly unsettling, as long as Spidey grows and has solid solo adventures I can let it go in the movies, since Iron-Man pretty much started the success of the marvel comic Universe so it makes sense for them to keep featuring him in as many films as possible.

[WebLurker]

Except,in OMD it was actually Mary Jane that made the deal and more important than that this was a deus ex story to replace a old status quo that was lasting for over twenty years in the stories.Dont see how a character gets to be less great due a editorially decision.Would be as saying that Iron Man is a worst character due the Heroes reborn event from way back in 1996.

I see your point, but it is still character assassination of a sort. And, unlike the Heroes Reborn series, we still have to deal with all the crap that OMD wrought.

In Superior Spider-Man,it was not Spider-Man but actually Doctor Octopus controlling Spider-Man body,its like saying Captain America is a worst character because Red Skull switched his mind with Captain America around the 115 th issue of Captain America.

From what I read, I didn't find SSM to be a good series and the Doc Ock Spider-Man character was the worst offender for me.

And with BND,unless a character being a bachelor or fighting new villains is bad (?!) then dunno what the complaints about BND are about.

I'd argue that is was bad for this Spider-Man series, since it was an attempt to revert the comic series to the kind of stories that it had been telling in the past, despite the fact that that ship had sailed years ago. There are places for this kind of story, but 616 comics set in the present is not one of those places.

[TheCape]

Except,in OMD it was actually Mary Jane that made the deal and more important than that this was a deus ex story to replace a old status quo that was lasting for over twenty years in the stories.Dont see how a character gets to be less great due a editorially decision.Would be as saying that Iron Man is a worst character due the Heroes reborn event from way back in 1996.

Peter guilt tripped her into taking the deal, at best is the fault of boths.

And with BND,unless a character being a bachelor or fighting new villains is bad (?!) then dunno what the complaints about BND are about.

That they took a decision to tell stories that they couldn't tell with him being married, exploring new frontiers with the charather and then proceed to do the same stuff that he was doing when he was married and many of then were even worse. Everything that they did in BND could have been done with the marriage still there, except for the new love interest and most of us agreed that they were garbage, the fact that after MJ the most popular pairing was Spider-Man and Carol Danvers tell us a lot about the quality there (not mentioning that Peter dating a superheroine is a creatively bankrupt idea)

[SpideyCeo]

The fact the news that Spidey was going to be in Cap 3 basically stole everyone else's thunder. I think that show that even on the movie side they needed him.

See i don't get that, he stole no ones thunder because he never achieve his objective, if anything antman stole the thunder from him and helped Cap beat Tony by defeating Peter for good. He was basically there as an errand boy to tonys hero antagonist mentor and was put in a fight where he basically made cap more badass than he already was.

[SpideyCeo]

I don't know, I think Spider-Man was better suited for the occasional team-up rather than being part of the Avengers:

1.) The Avengers take on the national and cosmic threats. Spider-Man's bread and butter has always been the street-level crime and problems.

2.) The Avengers have the reputation as heroes, Spider-Man does not. (He may be the most popular character to us readers, but he's not that well loved in the Marvel world.)

3.) Most of the other Avengers seem to be most steeped in their superhero careers, Spider-Man seemed to prefer his normal life.

4.) The Avenger members all seem to live larger-than-normal lives and be really famous. Peter Parker is very much less so and had a very normal life (blue-collar job, a wife and maybe kids depending on which continuity we're talking, etc.)

Peter was being groomed by steve and tony personally and had most of his solo adventures being a big fan of them to yhe point he would eventually be a member of team building up more his life around their
being trained and majorly supported by them, him an mj lived with tony and got less domestic as well.

Peter always was rooted as a focusing on being the greatest superhero one day, and he got more interested into superhuman activity the more explored
all these team ups over the years.

[MyLittleXero]

See i don't get that, he stole no ones thunder because he never achieve his objective, if anything antman stole the thunder from him and helped Cap beat Tony by defeating Peter for good. He was basically there as an errand boy to tonys hero antagonist mentor and was put in a fight where he basically made cap more badass than he already was.

Spidey stole every scene he was in, he simultaneously beat Falcon and Bucky, his plan was the one that beat Giant Man and please how did Spider Man getting hit help Steve beat Tony? Really explain that to me Spidey wasn't around in Siberia and Black Widow had already helped Cap and Buck take the Quinjet and after that Vision shot down War Machine out of all that how did Spidey getting hit by Giant Man be the thing that made Tony fail?

[theoneandonly]

I wonder if spiderman moving with the avengers was detrimental to him or not but his being tonys assistant was surely not flattering to the character as he made spider man his lackey and kept him in dark while he was utpto all kind of shenanigans and ultimately brought him down tumbling for a period not that he himself did much better but still tony has not been a positive influence on peters life and it continued in movies where it seemed he blackmailed him to be fighting on his side.

[comicscollector]

I see your point, but it is still character assassination of a sort. And, unlike the Heroes Reborn series, we still have to deal with all the crap that OMD wrought.

As i said before it was Mary Jane that made the deal not Peter Parker,so dunno how that means OMD was a character assassination of Peter Parker!?
What you call "crap" i say are things that were in demand in the Spider-Man stories to improve them.
As the organic webings disappering from the stories,at last the change of a status quo that was already lasting for twenty years thus making way for new type of stories,the return of classic villains and classic suporting characters in the main Spider-Man series,or the return of Spider-Man secret identity becoming a secret again.

From what I read, I didn't find SSM to be a good series and the Doc Ock Spider-Man character was the worst offender for me.

Opinions vary.
Superior Spider-Man was great to me,it proved that Dan Slott is one of the best Otto Octavious writers (no easy feat,considerating the many writers that have wrote Doctor Octopus stories before) and made a classic type of story (villain switch minds with the hero) with a modern narrative and made that story last for quite many stories keeping the story interesting and well worth reading.

I'd argue that is was bad for this Spider-Man series, since it was an attempt to revert the comic series to the kind of stories that it had been telling in the past, despite the fact that that ship had sailed years ago. There are places for this kind of story, but 616 comics set in the present is not one of those places.

Except there have been not a single story told post BND that resembled the Spider-Man stories before Amazing Spider-Man Annual:21.
I would had known because i read most of those stories.
What happened with BND was that it gave the possibility to the stories move in a new direction thanks to it being a diferent status quo that had been in the stories for already twenty years.
So yeah,narrative wise it make the stories better to not have a status quo that remain the same forever,and that was something that was looking to be the case with the Spider-Man stories.because between Amazing Spider-Man Annual#21 and BND,twenty years worth of stories were told through multiple Spidey comics (in fact there were much more Spider-Man comics after the marriage of Peter and MJ that during the time Peter was single)
So yeah in my opinion the stories could have just improve with Peter being single again and having diferent type of stories.

[comicscollector]

That they took a decision to tell stories that they couldn't tell with him being married, exploring new frontiers with the charather and then proceed to do the same stuff that he was doing when he was married and many of then were even worse. Everything that they did in BND could have been done with the marriage still there, except for the new love interest and most of us agreed that they were garbage, the fact that after MJ the most popular pairing was Spider-Man and Carol Danvers tell us a lot about the quality there (not mentioning that Peter dating a superheroine is a creatively bankrupt idea)

Opinions vary.
I have enjoyed the "fresh air" that changing a Status quo that was lasting for over twenty years provided to the stories.
After reading for over twenty years stories featuring the marriage of Peter and Mary Jane it was with Brand New Day that made the stories more interesting and worthy to be reading.
After all,i consider Spider-Man comics (and Marvel comics as well) as comics that go in different narrative directions and does not stay the same forever,if i wanted to read stories that remain forever in the same Status quo i would rather read Archie comics or Disney comics featuring Donald Duck for example.
So changes in the status quo are good ways to keep the stories exciting to read imo.
About the love interests in the Spider-Man stories,well it could had been better.
But even so i enjoyed reading about new romantic interest in the stories as Carlie,Michelle,Black Cat or Carol because that made the stories interesting and is a good example of how with a new SQ the stories can be developed in new directions.

[shooshoomanjoe]

You are welcome.
Spider-Man wants to join the Avengers in issue#236 and 237 because he was invited by Thor in issue #221.Those stories were written by Roger Stern and had references to the stories of Spider-Man.
By the end of issue 237,Spider-Man joining the Avengers is declined by the Government,but Captain America and Wasp consider having Spider-Man as a Avenger Trainee and having had the aproval of Thor before shows that the majority of the Avengers team would consider Spidey as a member,thus why i think those issues as the first ones that lead to Spider-Man become a reservist Avenger.
Before Spidey become a reservist Avenger,there is another story arc that features Spider-Man in Avengers#314 to 318 as well.

IIRC, Spider-Man also joins full time in Avengers #314-318 but quits because he didn't like fighting cosmic beings.