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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think, for the sake of the plot of the movie, it made sense to create a connection between Peter and Tony in order to find a way to justify him getting involved in the Civil War conflict, and obviously they wanted a more plausible explanation for the high quality look of the Spider-Man suit then what you would expect a teenager to pull off (because apparently suspension of disbelief only goes so far on that subject).

    That being said, I'm personally not too crazy about it. I think Peter works best as a self-made hero without any "upgrades" or "tech" from somebody like Tony Stark, and doesn't need any kind of mentor to be a hero, least of all from someone like Iron Man. Maybe this stretches disbelief, but we're already dealing with a character who stretches things enough as is, especially when he actually has a secret identity (and those are apparently so unbelievable).

    And I don't think Spider-Man on an Avengers team has ever been very noteworthy outside the novelty of it and a few significant but far between character moments. He's really only their for comedy relief and quips and that's it, rather then actually contributing something worthwhile to the group.

    It's like on the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, in emphasizing Spider-Man in a team setting and working with SHIELD it feels like a lot of the essential elements of Spider-Man have been lost in the process or marginalized, because it's not a natural fit for the character.

  2. #17
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think, for the sake of the plot of the movie, it made sense to create a connection between Peter and Tony in order to find a way to justify him getting involved in the Civil War conflict, and obviously they wanted a more plausible explanation for the high quality look of the Spider-Man suit then what you would expect a teenager to pull off (because apparently suspension of disbelief only goes so far on that subject).

    That being said, I'm personally not too crazy about it. I think Peter works best as a self-made hero without any "upgrades" or "tech" from somebody like Tony Stark, and doesn't need any kind of mentor to be a hero, least of all from someone like Iron Man. Maybe this stretches disbelief, but we're already dealing with a character who stretches things enough as is, especially when he actually has a secret identity (and those are apparently so unbelievable).

    And I don't think Spider-Man on an Avengers team has ever been very noteworthy outside the novelty of it and a few significant but far between character moments. He's really only their for comedy relief and quips and that's it, rather then actually contributing something worthwhile to the group.

    It's like on the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, in emphasizing Spider-Man in a team setting and working with SHIELD it feels like a lot of the essential elements of Spider-Man have been lost in the process or marginalized, because it's not a natural fit for the character.
    The sad thing is that he really could contribute a lot if the Avengers writers didn't think he got enough face-time in his own series and just settled for making sure the readers knew he was there at all. His scientific knowledge and expertise is on par with a number of the Avengers' top scientific minds, building things like anti-magnetic inverters to deal with the Vulture's magnetically powered flight harness, using different chemical mixtures to make webbing that can dissolve reinforced materials like the Rhino's artificial hide suit, and even making tracers attuned to the unique EM frequency his spider-sense operates on, something Hank Pym was amazed by as he'd been working on developing something with similar principles for half his adult life and Spider-Man managed it when he was 15. And to think, a lot of his pre-Horizon Labs/Parker Industries inventions were basically made from whatever he could scrounge from junkyards and abandoned science lab materials and he still managed to use them to defeat opponents who were better-equipped. If that's not ingenuity, intelligence, and creativity the Avengers could use on their side, I don't know what is.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #18
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The sad thing is that he really could contribute a lot if the Avengers writers didn't think he got enough face-time in his own series and just settled for making sure the readers knew he was there at all. His scientific knowledge and expertise is on par with a number of the Avengers' top scientific minds, building things like anti-magnetic inverters to deal with the Vulture's magnetically powered flight harness, using different chemical mixtures to make webbing that can dissolve reinforced materials like the Rhino's artificial hide suit, and even making tracers attuned to the unique EM frequency his spider-sense operates on, something Hank Pym was amazed by as he'd been working on developing something with similar principles for half his adult life and Spider-Man managed it when he was 15. And to think, a lot of his pre-Horizon Labs/Parker Industries inventions were basically made from whatever he could scrounge from junkyards and abandoned science lab materials and he still managed to use them to defeat opponents who were better-equipped. If that's not ingenuity, intelligence, and creativity the Avengers could use on their side, I don't know what is.
    I completely agree. Spider-Man is as smart as, if not smarter than, any of the Avengers' top minds, including T'Challa and Tony Stark. Hopefully the new Avengers series will fix that - Peter has already upgraded the Quinjet and built a med-bay capable of repairing even the Vision.

    Actually, something I'd really like to see in the comics would be Spider-Man (the younger generation, more moral, genius) take on the Illuminati (old, rich guys/geniuses who have been messing with the world for far too long) - save for Dr. Strange, of course, since Spider-Man can't beat him. It could be great thematically, as ANAD features a lot of heroes passing the mantle to younger heroes, and great character moment for Spidey, who might then realize there is a need for a group like the Illuminati, but he revamps it to make it more moral and better.

  4. #19
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    I completely agree. Spider-Man is as smart as, if not smarter than, any of the Avengers' top minds, including T'Challa and Tony Stark. Hopefully the new Avengers series will fix that - Peter has already upgraded the Quinjet and built a med-bay capable of repairing even the Vision.

    Actually, something I'd really like to see in the comics would be Spider-Man (the younger generation, more moral, genius) take on the Illuminati (old, rich guys/geniuses who have been messing with the world for far too long) - save for Dr. Strange, of course, since Spider-Man can't beat him. It could be great thematically, as ANAD features a lot of heroes passing the mantle to younger heroes, and great character moment for Spidey, who might then realize there is a need for a group like the Illuminati, but he revamps it to make it more moral and better.
    Hmm, that would be a pretty good story arc that could represent Spider-Man more fully stepping into and embracing the role that Captain America (Steve Rogers) traditionally enjoys in the Marvel Universe --- that of the moral center and inspirational paragon of the superhero community. I mean, a lot of the future-set Marvel stories depict Spider-Man as being the greatest hero of his era, so why not have some actual progression toward that in the present-day MU stories? And yes, him leading the final rebuke and repudiation of the increasing moral ambiguity and dubiousness of the "top heroes" like Iron Man, his compatriots in the Illuminati, and even Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers (in light of Civil War II) would be a good way to show that progression. In that same light, I could see him sponsoring a movement like the current Champions, given how Spidey is usually treated as "the cool big brother" of the younger Marvel superheroes, while trying to reform the Avengers so that the Avengers can find their way back to being the heroes the world needs and deserves.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #20
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, that would be a pretty good story arc that could represent Spider-Man more fully stepping into and embracing the role that Captain America (Steve Rogers) traditionally enjoys in the Marvel Universe --- that of the moral center and inspirational paragon of the superhero community. I mean, a lot of the future-set Marvel stories depict Spider-Man as being the greatest hero of his era, so why not have some actual progression toward that in the present-day MU stories? And yes, him leading the final rebuke and repudiation of the increasing moral ambiguity and dubiousness of the "top heroes" like Iron Man, his compatriots in the Illuminati, and even Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers (in light of Civil War II) would be a good way to show that progression. In that same light, I could see him sponsoring a movement like the current Champions, given how Spidey is usually treated as "the cool big brother" of the younger Marvel superheroes, while trying to reform the Avengers so that the Avengers can find their way back to being the heroes the world needs and deserves.
    Yeah, definitely. Cable specifically stated the Spider-Man is known as the world's greatest hero in the future, so I think it is time he starts living up to that. Considering the status quo of the current Marvel Universe, and the lack of unity between superheroes, I think Spider-Man is the perfect person to bring change. He is as inspirational as Captain America, as intelligent as Iron Man, and as tenacious as Thor (the Avengers trinity). What with Civil War II devolving into a fight over Miles, I find it strange that Peter has had nothing to do with it. He should be front and centre, protecting Miles with the full might of both his powers and technology - while also defusing the idiotic behaviour of both Carol and Tony.

    I also really like the idea of exploring Spidey's dynamic with younger heroes. He is in that gray area where he usually isn't treated as one of the most experienced heroes, yet is far from a rookie as well, so that could be fun. Him being a prominent member of both the Avengers and Champions - almost serving as a liaison between the two, in addition to providing tech and inspiration and whatever - would be a great dynamic to explore. If only Marvel wrote stories like this instead of crap like Civil War II.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    Yeah, definitely. Cable specifically stated the Spider-Man is known as the world's greatest hero in the future, so I think it is time he starts living up to that. Considering the status quo of the current Marvel Universe, and the lack of unity between superheroes, I think Spider-Man is the perfect person to bring change. He is as inspirational as Captain America, as intelligent as Iron Man, and as tenacious as Thor (the Avengers trinity). What with Civil War II devolving into a fight over Miles, I find it strange that Peter has had nothing to do with it. He should be front and centre, protecting Miles with the full might of both his powers and technology - while also defusing the idiotic behaviour of both Carol and Tony.

    I also really like the idea of exploring Spidey's dynamic with younger heroes. He is in that gray area where he usually isn't treated as one of the most experienced heroes, yet is far from a rookie as well, so that could be fun. Him being a prominent member of both the Avengers and Champions - almost serving as a liaison between the two, in addition to providing tech and inspiration and whatever - would be a great dynamic to explore. If only Marvel wrote stories like this instead of crap like Civil War II.

    i have nothing against civl war II, but i generally like the point you make. guys like captain america are usually depicted as the last man standing in doomsday scenarios, though i think it would be far more powerful (and more marvel) to have that be the every man. namely, spidey.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The sad thing is that he really could contribute a lot if the Avengers writers didn't think he got enough face-time in his own series and just settled for making sure the readers knew he was there at all. His scientific knowledge and expertise is on par with a number of the Avengers' top scientific minds, building things like anti-magnetic inverters to deal with the Vulture's magnetically powered flight harness, using different chemical mixtures to make webbing that can dissolve reinforced materials like the Rhino's artificial hide suit, and even making tracers attuned to the unique EM frequency his spider-sense operates on, something Hank Pym was amazed by as he'd been working on developing something with similar principles for half his adult life and Spider-Man managed it when he was 15. And to think, a lot of his pre-Horizon Labs/Parker Industries inventions were basically made from whatever he could scrounge from junkyards and abandoned science lab materials and he still managed to use them to defeat opponents who were better-equipped. If that's not ingenuity, intelligence, and creativity the Avengers could use on their side, I don't know what is.
    The new run could be better in that regard, but we'll obviously have to wait and see.

  8. #23
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    To be honest, I don't see Spidey needing the Avengers; I would say the Avengers need Spider-Man. The Avengers usually see Spidey as a "comedy relief" rather than a very valuable ally, but even if they don't recognize (or maybe they simply can't), Spidey has been very useful for them in the past. Like that time when Hydra created "Hydra duplicates" of the main Avengers (Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and Hawkeye). If if wasn't for Spidey, Hydra would have succeded into nuking the USA.

    So, like I say, I believe the Avengers need Spider-Man more than the other way around.

  9. #24
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    Yeah, definitely. Cable specifically stated the Spider-Man is known as the world's greatest hero in the future, so I think it is time he starts living up to that. Considering the status quo of the current Marvel Universe, and the lack of unity between superheroes, I think Spider-Man is the perfect person to bring change. He is as inspirational as Captain America, as intelligent as Iron Man, and as tenacious as Thor (the Avengers trinity). What with Civil War II devolving into a fight over Miles, I find it strange that Peter has had nothing to do with it. He should be front and centre, protecting Miles with the full might of both his powers and technology - while also defusing the idiotic behaviour of both Carol and Tony.

    I also really like the idea of exploring Spidey's dynamic with younger heroes. He is in that gray area where he usually isn't treated as one of the most experienced heroes, yet is far from a rookie as well, so that could be fun. Him being a prominent member of both the Avengers and Champions - almost serving as a liaison between the two, in addition to providing tech and inspiration and whatever - would be a great dynamic to explore. If only Marvel wrote stories like this instead of crap like Civil War II.
    Considering that his tie-in mini for Civil War II had his relationship with Clayton "Clash" Cole utterly destroyed and Cole pushed back into villainy by Peter following Ulysses' predictions, and then ended with him swearing to be Carol's conscience, it is quite disappointing that Peter hasn't made his presence more felt in this event, at least to protect Miles if nothing else. And now that she's apparently killed Tony Stark . . . if Civil War II #8 passes without Peter at least calling her out for using lethal force on a friend and fellow Avenger the way she did, even if he was trying to goad her into a reaction by using that particular armor, I will be even more disappointed.

    That aside, I do like boots' point about it being more meaningful and inspiring for the "everyman" of the Marvel Universe to be the last one standing in the face of a humongous threat like Thanos or Ultron or Kang. Hell, wasn't it that very "everyman" status that made Jim Shooter include Spider-Man in a lot of his cosmic stories, particularly the original Secret Wars, where he did kick all sorts of @$$? And yes, Ursalink, I remember that New Avengers arc of JMS's Amazing Spider-Man, particularly the part where he tosses Wolverine off the top floor of Stark Tower for being an @$$hole about the rumors that Mary Jane was sleeping with Tony Stark. Given the later revelations of Secret Invasion, I bet even the Skrull Queen Veranke was wary of him in that moment.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    To be honest, I don't see Spidey needing the Avengers; I would say the Avengers need Spider-Man. The Avengers usually see Spidey as a "comedy relief" rather than a very valuable ally, but even if they don't recognize (or maybe they simply can't), Spidey has been very useful for them in the past. Like that time when Hydra created "Hydra duplicates" of the main Avengers (Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and Hawkeye). If if wasn't for Spidey, Hydra would have succeded into nuking the USA.

    So, like I say, I believe the Avengers need Spider-Man more than the other way around.
    When did that happen ?

    I can't fault the Avengers for seeing Spidey as more "comedy relief" when that seems to be most of what he amounts to in a team-setting.

  11. #26
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    When did that happen ?

    I can't fault the Avengers for seeing Spidey as more "comedy relief" when that seems to be most of what he amounts to in a team-setting.
    It happened in Amazing Spider-Man: New Avengers, collecting issues 519-524 of ASM and showing more of how Peter, Mary Jane, and Aunt May adjusted to living in Stark Tower and Peter being an Avenger. By and large, it did seem like the Avengers writers (Bendis and Hickman) thought whatever business Spider-Man directly had with the Avengers could be handled more in his own title(s), thus freeing them to focus on their own plot and character developments without doing much to showcase Spidey as more than "that guy who happens to be a big name and thus will help the Avengers comics sell more copies."
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Grim Ghost's Avatar
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    He only ever wanted to join groups like the FF or Avengers for money. That isn't in the equation anymore so there is no reason for Peter to be in these groups now.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Ghost View Post
    He only ever wanted to join groups like the FF or Avengers for money. That isn't in the equation anymore so there is no reason for Peter to be in these groups now.
    Unless, you know, he thinks that fighting alongside other heroes might help people, protect the world - the universe, even. It's been long established that Peter is ok with being a team player in a way that he wasn't when he was younger.

  14. #29
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think Peter's matured enough as a hero and person that he works better on teams then he did when he was just starting out or in his younger years, though not to the extent that he'll be written or used well on teams .

  15. #30
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    Redwing just showed what he thinks of the OP just recently in "Avengers".

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