Spider-Man "needing" the Avengers is disgusting

[WebLurker]

As i said before it was Mary Jane that made the deal not Peter Parker,so dunno how that means OMD was a character assassination of Peter Parker!?

A.) The original series implied that Peter was the instigator, so OMIT was a retcon. B.) Based on what I know of the characters, neither of then would've even considered the deal, much less taken it, so there's your character assassination.

What you call "crap" i say are things that were in demand in the Spider-Man stories to improve them.
As the organic webings disappering from the stories,at last the change of a status quo that was already lasting for twenty years thus making way for new type of stories,the return of classic villains and classic suporting characters in the main Spider-Man series,or the return of Spider-Man secret identity becoming a secret again.

Yes and no, I'd say. Remember, no one wanted OMD in the first place (even today, it's considered one of the worst Spider-Man stories ever penned; even fans who think that BND was the best thing to happen to the franchise don't seem to like it). Also, a lot of that stuff, like Spider-Man loosing his secret identity were specifically done to pave the way to OMD, so the deck was kind of stacked ("see we need this to happen"). Besides that, pretty much the totality of BND did not need OMD to be told. As far as new stories go, I'm not sure that most of the new stuff we're getting even belongs in Spider-Man, so you may understand that I don't feel that anything has been improved and, in fact, has done a great deal of damage.

Opinions vary.
Superior Spider-Man was great to me,it proved that Dan Slott is one of the best Otto Octavious writers (no easy feat,considerating the many writers that have wrote Doctor Octopus stories before) and made a classic type of story (villain switch minds with the hero) with a modern narrative and made that story last for quite many stories keeping the story interesting and well worth reading.

Fair enough. However, the voice that Slott gave Ock is one the things that I really hate about his writing.

Except there have been not a single story told post BND that resembled the Spider-Man stories before Amazing Spider-Man Annual:21.
I would had known because i read most of those stories.
What happened with BND was that it gave the possibility to the stories move in a new direction thanks to it being a diferent status quo that had been in the stories for already twenty years.

Okay, however, if what we're getting is the "new direction," then the cost was too high.

So yeah,narrative wise it make the stories better to not have a status quo that remain the same forever,and that was something that was looking to be the case with the Spider-Man stories.because between Amazing Spider-Man Annual#21 and BND,twenty years worth of stories were told through multiple Spidey comics (in fact there were much more Spider-Man comics after the marriage of Peter and MJ that during the time Peter was single)
So yeah in my opinion the stories could have just improve with Peter being single again and having diferent type of stories.

For some of us, that twenty-year status quo (or other status quos like it) were hardwired into the franchise; part of the "Read-only memory" in the computer, if you will. Opinions will vary of course, and it could be a generational thing, but I, as a Spider-Man fan, am sickened by what it's become. So, bear in mind, for some of us, it's just just a minor change in storytelling; Spider-Man itself was changed into something else.

[Darthfury78]

The Avengers did need Spider-Man's popularity to boost them among the marvel readers, but after the successfull movies I would argue that the inclusion of Spidey is no longer that vital. I would much prefer Spider-Man having a team of some spider themed chars like: Silk, Scarlet Spider(Kain), Firestar, Silver Sable for example.

Don't forget Jessica Drew and Julia Carpenter, along with Tigra...

[Spidercide]

To perceive any of this as something to be upset about is even dumber, honestly.

Having his costume designed by Tony in the movies simply makes sense. It's not that Tony invented Spidey's costume (or his web-shooters), Peter did. Tony just gave him an upgrade that a kid from Queens could never afford. In the comics, we never bother to question how a teenager is so good with a needle and thread that he can create a fairly intricate costume on his own. And that's ok. Spidey's origin hails from a simpler time and we've just always gone along with it. But in live action, implausibilities jump out more. You can still suspend your disbelief, of course. In the Sam Raimi Spidey's, we just accept that Peter makes his costume and that it looks the way it does, even though he's a poor kid and we know that the costume he's wearing in real life cost hundreds of thousands of $ and required a team of skilled designers to pull off who had to go through multiple costly prototypes before reaching the final version. The Andrew Garfield films tried to make Garfield's costume more convincingly "homemade" but it was still a stretch.

Having Tony make Spidey's suit in the MCU is just a sensible way of making Spidey's duds look like the comics without requiring requiring any great suspension of disbelief regarding how this broke kid could possibly pull off such an outfit. It makes it immediately plausible. And on a character level, it also creates a bond between Peter and Tony, two science nerds.

As for Cap beating up Spidey, it's not like losing to Captain America is like getting taken down by, say, Speedball. It's Captain freaking America. And, at the point in the career that we see Spidey in CW, he's still a novice hero learning the ropes. On top of that, he still holds his own against Cap pretty well. And it's not as though he gets destroyed (far from it) and it's his strategy that enables Tony's team to take out Ant-Man.

Marvel is not treating Spider-Man poorly in any way. You're overreacting to imagined slights.

Nope.

Lets talk comics first.

Spider-Man being worthy of the Avengers is damn straight. His membership though has more often than not since he joined intruded and distrupted his own series. They’ve shown up too much and his membership could solve almost any dilemma he faces.

More poignantly though Spider-Man realistically would never have the time to be an Avenger and serves no purpose in the Avengers teams and books he’s been in since 2004 other than adding some sales. Cap and Iron Man have a function within the team. Spider-Man is mostly just the jokey guy and that is it. Sure that’s because his story is driven by his own titles, but that is just even more reason to not include him as a regular member.

Additionally realistically Peter at this point in his life might want allies he can call upon for help but wouldn’t want to be a full time member. He would see his place as being on the streets where he can fight for the little guy and the smaller, yet still damaging crimes that pervade them. The Avengers save the planet regularly which is great but they don’t take down the drug dealers in the back allies of the local communities or the lunatics with shotguns like Sin Eater. That’s beneath their radar but it isn’t beneath Spidey’s who can cross NYC fairly quickly and deal with those crimes effectively by and large.

Then you have the simple fact that no one buys ASM for Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. They want Spider-Man to be the main attraction not one of many heroes crowding the place up.

As for the movies that’s even more severe.

Tony making the suit for him absolutely makes **** all sense. The ASM movie from 2012 was deliberately ging for realism, much more realism in fact than is common in the MCu and they managed to have him put together his own costume in a believable way. It especially makes sense for someone who is something of a savant like Peter.

In the comics Peter is a nerdy kid who’s ostracized from his peers and bullied a lot and consequently his closest friends are his elderly aunt and uncle and it is from them that he learned to sew just as a hobby. Additionally some people sew just as a creative or as a mental exercise so for a genius like Peter doing that every so often isn’t unbelievable.

Do most teenagers? No, but even in 1962 Peter Parker wasn’t like most teenagers, merely relatively like most teenagers by comparison to other comics. I find the line of argument that it makes no sense for him to be so good with a needle and thread hypocritical since the same argument is never applied to Ultimate Mary Jane who made most of his replacement costumes despite also being a teenager. But she’s a girl I guess so that’s okay I suppose. We gotta question why Peter is so good at needle workt hat he could create a superhero costume but Ultimate MJ is just uber skilled I guess.

Also there is a fairly famous Dr Who fan turned professional comedian and writer who in his biography mentioned taking up knitting as a hobby during his bullied school years. It isn’t common but it is far from unbelievable.

So Tony was unnecessary for us to get to Peter in costume looking iconic.

Tony giving him an upgrade was not only unecesarry but undermines massively core philosophies of Spider-Man, especially teenage early days Spider-Man.

He’s the blue collar everyman superhero. No one handed him anything he didn’t have to work his ass off for. He didn’t have a benevolent father figure as a benefactor to guide and help him out. He had to struggle to do it all himself. This was core to the character as a defying of the conventions surroudnign teen heroes at the time. he wasn’t the junior member of a team or a sidekick. He was his own man. Hence why he was never Spider-Boy, Spider-Kid, Spider-Lad but Spider-MAN.

This goes hand in hand with making Spidey an aspiring Avenger and Tony’s protégé in the MCU altogether. Like...no. that’s very obviously counter to the point of Spider-Man.

[boots]

Nope.

Also there is a fairly famous Dr Who fan turned professional comedian and writer who in his biography mentioned taking up knitting as a hobby during his bullied school years. It isn’t common but it is far from unbelievable.

forget fuggin parker industries, if peter takes up knitting i expect him to own an international clothing line in due time. parker apparel for the new status quo in 2017.

[Huntsman Spider]

Spidercide speaks a lot of truth. And boots, that would kind of make sense. I mean, if you think about it, Peter is probably a modern renaissance man --- he's not only extremely cognizant and skilled in most conventional and even some unconventional sciences, he's also an excellent tailor and a good photographer, and after years of working for The Daily Bugle, he's probably got the makings of a good newsperson, too. Given that photography seems to have fallen through for him, I could see him combining his tailoring skills with his science skills and inventing new fabrics that have all the durability of steel or titanium or even adamantium or vibranium, but can be as smooth as silk, as soft as cotton, as elastic as spandex, or as form-fitting as denim. Hell, he could make artificial leather or latex that would actually be breathable and durable, or even design technologically integrated fabrics, given that wearable technology will be more of a thing in the future, and he could be on the cutting edge of that. Fashionable yet technologically and physically formidable. He could end up being a good version of Roderick Kingsley, who was a fashion mogul before becoming a super-villain (and later super-villain franchiser).

And speaking of, I'm part of a Facebook group dedicated to Spider-Man (and Spider-Man-related) cosplay, and a lot of the costumes I've seen are pretty high-quality on a comparatively small budget. It's not entirely implausible that Peter, in this day and age, would be able to make his own costume, based on the caliber I've seen from some cosplayers, so he wouldn't necessarily need Tony Stark to make him a costume truer to the original comics version of himself.

[phantom1592]

For some of us, that twenty-year status quo (or other status quos like it) were hardwired into the franchise; part of the "Read-only memory" in the computer, if you will. Opinions will vary of course, and it could be a generational thing, but I, as a Spider-Man fan, am sickened by what it's become. So, bear in mind, for some of us, it's just just a minor change in storytelling; Spider-Man itself was changed into something else.

I find it interesting that the married Spider-man/MJ was ONLY status quo in the comics. From Spider-man and his Amazing Friends to the 90's series all the way to Spectacular to the recent Ultimate Spider-man... he was gloriously single and dealing with hijinks. Ultimate Spider-Man comics... the video games... The movies were all universally single. The toys never made a comment about his marital status... I usually stay by Comics trump other media... but for Spidey, the other media NEVER matched the 'status quo'.

[Agent Z]

I find it interesting that the married Spider-man/MJ was ONLY status quo in the comics. From Spider-man and his Amazing Friends to the 90's series all the way to Spectacular to the recent Ultimate Spider-man... he was gloriously single and dealing with hijinks. Ultimate Spider-Man comics... the video games... The movies were all universally single. The toys never made a comment about his marital status... I usually stay by Comics trump other media... but for Spidey, the other media NEVER matched the 'status quo'.

Not really. The 90s series had him in a relationship with MJ towards the end and so did the Raimi movies. For virtually all the movies and tv shows he was in a committed relationship even if he wasn't married.

[phantom1592]

Not really. The 90s series had him in a relationship with MJ towards the end and so did the Raimi movies. For virtually all the movies and tv shows he was in a committed relationship even if he wasn't married.

The Raimi movies were all about how he COULDN’T be in a committed relationship. Half the time he was chasing MJ, half the time he was pushing her away. She was around In the 90’s series and were heading that direction, but that whole last season she was ‘missing’ from.

The Status Quo for years was MJ and Peter forever. They could fight, he could screw up, but they were always there for each other. In all the other media, even when they WERE dating there was a distinct possibility that Spider-man would cost Peter his happiness. Either he’d be late for one too many dates, Black Cat would seduce him away, something would happen… and most of the time she doesn’t even know he IS spider-man…

So even when the media reflects the comic… it’s still just reflection. There is always that wiggle room that maybe THIS time he ends up with Gwen or Felicia…

[WebLurker]

I find it interesting that the married Spider-man/MJ was ONLY status quo in the comics. From Spider-man and his Amazing Friends to the 90's series all the way to Spectacular to the recent Ultimate Spider-man... he was gloriously single and dealing with hijinks.

Sort of, but not quite. Fair enough about Amazing Friends and the pre-90s cartoons, maybe Ultimate Spider-Man the cartoon, but that's only a piece of the puzzle.

In the '90s cartoon series, Spidey did try to marry MJ. That didn't quite work out, but it was made pretty clear that she was the woman he wanted to spend his life with and the series did end with him going off to find her, so I think that would count, at least in spirit. Spectacular cartoon was about teenage Spidey and did focus more on his trying to date Gwen (and Liz Allen). However, it was cut short and the people producing the show have gone on record that the plan was that, despite Spidey's current dating cards, MJ was his future wife (what would've happened to Gwen is unclear). So, once again, technically not applying, but the intent was there.

Ultimate Spider-Man comics...

This's probably the most damaging example to your case. While technically true, the Peter/MJ relationship is one of the central pieces to the series. The comic really goes out of its way show us (that in this series at least), Peter and MJ are going to be together for life and that they're really the only viable outcome (heck, they've said on a few occasions that they'd want to get married when they're grown up and Liz Allen once made a joke that they were practically married in the series' present). Also, for what it's worth, in this series, the last we see of Peter and MJ is them basically eloping. So, this comic fits the spirit of the married years, just filtered through a teen comic setting. So, this's basically an honorary entry.

...the video games...

It does vary by game, but quite a few of them did have the Peter/MJ relationship as part of the game. For example, Web of Shadows gives MJ an important role (and the decisions you make influence whether the couple stay together or fall apart). The Edge of Time game (which had classic Spidey and Spider-Man 2099 teaming up in a time-travel adventure), features a level where 2099 needs to divert from the mission to change history and prevent MJ from being killed. He does this at classic Spidey's begging ("My future is meaningless without her.") and after resolving the issue makes an offhand comment to MJ that she and Peter will be spending the rest of their lives together (implied to be based on his knowledge of the original timeline). Also, for what it's worth, one of the few things that remain the same between the correct timeline and the contaminated one are that Peter and MJ are in a relationship.

The movies were all universally single.

But made Peter and MJ building a relationship a key part of the series.

The toys never made a comment about his marital status...

I'll take your word for it (although I have seen some).

I usually stay by Comics trump other media... but for Spidey, the other media NEVER matched the 'status quo'.

Okay, maybe what I should've said is that the majority of the franchise presents Spidey and MJ in a committed relationship of some kind, whether that looks like a marriage or just going steady. That's a close enough overlap for most people.

The Raimi movies were all about how he COULDN’T be in a committed relationship. Half the time he was chasing MJ, half the time he was pushing her away.

Um, no. Peter reaches that conclusion at the end of the first movie, but the second one makes the case that he could. The third movie ends with Peter and MJ reconciling (with a very strong implication that they're in for the long haul). So, the trilogy is about how these two people got together despite the problems they had along the way.

She was around In the 90’s series and were heading that direction, but that whole last season she was ‘missing’ from.

The Status Quo for years was MJ and Peter forever. They could fight, he could screw up, but they were always there for each other. In all the other media, even when they WERE dating there was a distinct possibility that Spider-man would cost Peter his happiness. Either he’d be late for one too many dates, Black Cat would seduce him away, something would happen… and most of the time she doesn’t even know he IS spider-man…

Maybe, although most versions have her figuring out or being told relatively early on.

So even when the media reflects the comic… it’s still just reflection. There is always that wiggle room that maybe THIS time he ends up with Gwen or Felicia…

Depends. The Ultimate comics had no wiggle room (Black Cat is too old and Gwen essentially says on two occasions that Peter isn't going to move on from MJ), the Spectacular cartoon may have had some, but who can say. Besides, it's a reflection that's close enough to the spirit of the idea to hook fans. Me, I never read any of the original comics; the reason I prefer seeing the two married is because my first stories were the Raimi movies and the Ultimate comics.

[TheCape]

So even when the media reflects the comic… it’s still just reflection. There is always that wiggle room that maybe THIS time he ends up with Gwen or Felicia…

Not really, Gwen is condemed to be Peter's greates faillure in most stories and Black Cat has been stablished to be to much of a thrill seeker for him, even when their relationship brought a lot of positives changes for her as a person. Peter and MJ are endgame, they are at least in a comitted relationship or she is the main love interest for him in almost every media, even Spec Spidey was going there eventually.

[Aura Blaize]

Um.....did he need them in the 80s and 90s when he and the X-Men were so popular that they carried the company on their backs while the Avengers characters were so unpopular that they had to be cancelled and rebooted by LIEFELD!

I say this in response to both the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon and Civil War, where his costume is designed by Iron Man and Captain America beats him up. This is why I despised the idea of Marvel getting the rights back.

Spider-Man is the company's central character, and to treat him like this is dumb.

Movie Cap is damn near superhuman himself. Aside from that, Peter was more or less toying around in Civil War.

[Shriveling_memo]

You by now, Spiderman should be in the team with new defenders, co leader with daredevil. All are great friend in one or other. I think Pete smarts would benefit the group

[SpideyCeo]

You by now, Spiderman should be in the team with new defenders, co leader with daredevil. All are great friend in one or other. I think Pete smarts would benefit the group

Peter should start his own team like in the ultimate spidey show.

[Darthfury78]

Ever since OMD, everyone at Marvel has treated Spider-Man like crap as if they never liked him at all. Every publication that has Spidey makes him out to be an idiot as if it was a Editorial Mandate.

[phantom1592]

Peter should start his own team like in the ultimate spidey show.

Gotta say, I absolutely HATE the ‘spider-team’ concept with a passion. I find nothing more boring or detrimental to a super hero than surrounding him with people who do the exact same thing and sometimes better than what he does. I hate it with the Green Lantern Corp, and I hate it with the Spider-verse.

If you want a team with Daredevil, Power Man, Iron Fist, or Firestar and Iceman… or pretty much anyone in the Marvel universe really… (except murderers like Deadpool), I’m all for it. Someone to work with, someone to banter with. It can be fun.

A team with Ben Reily, Kane, Silk, Spider-gwen and Miles… where everyone is sticking to walls and shooting webbing… Kill that with fire.

All you ever end up with is people wondering what we even need Peter for any way. Everyone else gets the focus and he’ll either be redundant or shown boring while the spotlight is on the fresher characters.


It really killed the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon for me once they added the SECOND team for him to train…