Wonder Woman #11 SPOILERS & DISCUSSION

[Nyssane]

Well, this was quite a conclusion to "The Lies." My initial thoughts:

Let's begin with Etta's subplot. I love that she chased after Sasha. I do find it odd that Veronica Cale, being as big a bigshot as she considers herself to be, would be the one to get the briefcase and not one of her underlings. I will say that I'm liking Cale more this time around than I did during Rucka's first run.

Now, Themyscira. I *love* that Steve points out that he can't find Philippus (and Castalia). It greatly surprised me seeing Rucka completely undoing what Azzarello and Finch had done in the New 52, but I'm definitely okay with it. I do hope it doesn't take too long for Diana to piece herself back together, but her world did just shatter. I wish we at least got a hint of what caused the Lies. Circe? The Duke of Deception? Doctor Psycho? Not even a slight hint...

What did everyone else think?

[Natamaxxx]

Well, this was quite a conclusion to "The Lies." My initial thoughts:

Let's begin with Etta's subplot. I love that she chased after Sasha. I do find it odd that Veronica Cale, being as big a bigshot as she considers herself to be, would be the one to get the briefcase and not one of her underlings. I will say that I'm liking Cale more this time around than I did during Rucka's first run.

Now, Themyscira. I *love* that Steve points out that he can't find Philippus (and Castalia). It greatly surprised me seeing Rucka completely undoing what Azzarello and Finch had done in the New 52, but I'm definitely okay with it. I do hope it doesn't take too long for Diana to piece herself back together, but her world did just shatter. I wish we at least got a hint of what caused the Lies. Circe? The Duke of Deception? Doctor Psycho? Not even a slight hint...

What did everyone else think?

So, I get that the writers intention here was to scrap everything that was established in the New 52. Fine - it's what most (or at least the most vocal) of the long time fans want, so DC may as well give it to them. The problem here is that this is being done in a very hasty and poorly thought out way. How is this issue the "conclusion" to the story? Absolutely nothing was revealed! At least not anything that even the most casual reader hasn't already guessed. Nothing about who's behind this, why, and most importantly HOW? Diana (and anyone else in the DCU that's been to PI) has been visiting the wrong island for a decade? She's been going to the wrong Olympus? The powers she manifested as the GOW (as seen in SM/WW) were what -- all in her head? I see no logical way this will be written as having been pulled off without making Diana seem monumentally weak and stupid. Especially since she has the Lasso of Truth (enough with calling it "The Perfect", seriously, wtf?) hanging right there on her hip!

B Plot = BORING. No one cared about Veronica Cale then, no one cares about her now.

[Doctor Bifrost]

B Plot = BORING. No one cared about Veronica Cale then, no one cares about her now.

I understand that you don't care about Veronica Cale, and of course you're entitled. But a general statement like that is almost always false.

As for me, I'm willing to see who and what this version's Veronica Cale actually is.

[Outside_85]

I'm kinda 'ehh...' about it really. And a big part of that is that I really don't like this idea about one writer making previous writers efforts completely non-existent as it continues to be implied to be doing. I didn't like it when Jeff Lemire basically killed everything added to the Green Arrow world when he started his run, regardless of how poor it had been or how great it became... and the same is true here. You as a writer do not have an obligation to wipe out other people's work just because you come in later on, when you have the option of just pretending it's not there.
Now I am sure Azzarello doesn't care that much about his contribution being wiped out now, but I really do think it's a massive sign of disrespect from one writer to another to do something like this.

On the other hand, it still looks good... Godwatch is still nothing, yet, hopefully it will get there. And I still have a small hope that the Themyscira found is the only illusion and that the other Themyscira is still out there somewhere... also just to explain what the dozen or so other characters actually visited over these past 5 years.

[Stanlos]

I'm kinda 'ehh...' about it really. And a big part of that is that I really don't like this idea about one writer making previous writers efforts completely non-existent as it continues to be implied to be doing. I didn't like it when Jeff Lemire basically killed everything added to the Green Arrow world when he started his run, regardless of how poor it had been or how great it became... and the same is true here. You as a writer do not have an obligation to wipe out other people's work just because you come in later on, when you have the option of just pretending it's not there.
Now I am sure Azzarello doesn't care that much about his contribution being wiped out now, but I really do think it's a massive sign of disrespect from one writer to another to do something like this.

On the other hand, it still looks good... Godwatch is still nothing, yet, hopefully it will get there. And I still have a small hope that the Themyscira found is the only illusion and that the other Themyscira is still out there somewhere... also just to explain what the dozen or so other characters actually visited over these past 5 years.

But didn't Azzarello do just that?

[Rakzo]

Mixed thoughts about this one. On one hand, I thought this was one of the best-written issues from The Lies arc with less heavy-handed themes and more natural dialogue and characterization with the cast reflecting their emotions perfectly about the recent reveal.

On the other hand, I really dislike how this is basically retconning Azzarello's run as a lie. This wouldn't bother me so much if Azzarello's work wouldn't have been so good and redefining for the character. Quite frankly Rucka's run hasn't been as consistent in comparison to justify such change.

Better work from Sharp at least, less awkward characters overall.

[numberthirty]

Hey, maybe an "Issue #11(Spoilers)" thread is in order?

[numberthirty]

(Because those can't be the spoilers... The writing has to be better than something that played out.)

[Dr. Poison]

Azzarello made Marston & Perez's runs a lie so I don't see how it's disrespectful for Rucka to do the same to him. Turn about is fair play especially when Azzarello's run did nothing to build up the character but rather tear her down along with her supporting cast. I think DC finally realized that Azzarello's set up wouldn't work for the long-haul because deviant shock value only sparks temporary interest and sales most of the time. Rucka has proven that a solid story full of good characterization and a noble, non-controversial hero can sell decent. I loved this issue's story and art. I'm eager to find out who is behind these "Lies". Hopefully it's not the obvious Circe but instead, Dr. Psycho, the Duke of Deception, or the Queen of Fables.

[hellacre]

Azzarello made Marston & Perez's runs a lie so I don't see how it's disrespectful for Rucka to do the same to him. Turn about is fair play especially when Azzarello's run did nothing to build up the character but rather tear her down along with her supporting cast. I think DC finally realized that Azzarello's set up wouldn't work for the long-haul because deviant shock value only sparks temporary interest and sales most of the time. Rucka has proven that a solid story full of good characterization and a noble, non-controversial hero can sell decent. I loved this issue's story and art. I'm eager to find out who is behind these "Lies". Hopefully it's not the obvious Circe but instead, Dr. Psycho, the Duke of Deception, or the Queen of Fables.

Technically I don't think so. Because it was a reboot. It did not riff off an already established continuity as he is doing now . All origin stories I would think have their own elements with similar themes. Not all are the same. So no Azzarello simply told his Wonder Woman story how he sees it with a new origin. It is not pre new 52 Diana he undid. That was long already done by DC before they rebooted. Rucka on the other hand is coming into new 52 continuity and undoing new 52 Diana.

[MarquisAsh]

I think I'm torn. I love what Rucka is doing but I also like some of things Azz did in his run. I don't mind the island being a fake. It just look like a place of savages. How would Diana be Diana growing up in a place like that? But I do like Zeus part of her origin.

[Outside_85]

Azzarello made Marston & Perez's runs a lie so I don't see how it's disrespectful for Rucka to do the same to him.

And no he didn't, because he had a Flashpoint clean slate to start from... but we've been around this tree before.

Regardless, while it wasn't perfect, it didn't need to be wiped out, only tweaked.

As for solid story... well this story is only fixing a problem it itself invented. Also this kind of approach leaves this story open to the same treatment from the very next writer who thinks they can do better or have a dislike to whatever this end product is.

[Confuzzled]

Azzarello made Marston & Perez's runs a lie so I don't see how it's disrespectful for Rucka to do the same to him. Turn about is fair play especially when Azzarello's run did nothing to build up the character but rather tear her down along with her supporting cast. I think DC finally realized that Azzarello's set up wouldn't work for the long-haul because deviant shock value only sparks temporary interest and sales most of the time. Rucka has proven that a solid story full of good characterization and a noble, non-controversial hero can sell decent. I loved this issue's story and art. I'm eager to find out who is behind these "Lies".

10 characters

[SeanT]

Azzarello made Marston & Perez's runs a lie...I think DC finally realized that Azzarello's set up wouldn't work for the long-haul because deviant shock value only sparks temporary interest and sales most of the time.

True. Just like the deviant Marston kept sales aloft for 7 years, and then her sales tanked when a more conventional guy took over.

I think it's hilarious you suggest Azzarello is nothing like Marston because it's so "deviant." Sorry, Marston was the definition of deviant: "departing from usual or accepted standards, especially in social or sexual behavior."

The guy had two wives, sometimes lived with three women. His stories were all about shock value, images that would trigger sensationalist impulses in children.

You talk about Marston like he's some kind of Christian writer, like the guy who wrote the Golden Compass. I get the impression you haven't even read him at all. Or at least understood it.

[FlictsLantern]

I feel that this issue is almost the oposite from the previous one.

The Good: fantastic nocturnal feel. Kudos to the colourist, and the subtle differences between the urban night and the natural one.

The Bad: Steve: "I've been on the island once or twice, and know something is wrong" Diana: "I was born and lived on the island my whole life, and can't recognize my own mother"; subtle dogs names are subtle; Etta Candy is above James Bond level in investigation and dexterity; easy robot doppleganger solution instead of mind control or blackmail

The Question: Isn't there too many questions to solve in one issue?