View Poll Results: How would you rate this issue?

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    10 15.15%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    If Azzarello really had a clean slate then why did he have to make the clay origin a lie instead of just going with the Zeus origin on its own? Azz said his book wasn't going to be a hard reboot yet that's exactly what we got.

    He could have just told a good, solid Wonder Woman story without retconning and ransacking a bunch of things(i.e. the Amazons, turning Orion into a creeper, etc.).
    Likely because his definition of a hard and soft reboot are different from what you hold them to be. As it was he used stuff that had already existed and did something different with it, which would make it a soft reboot. A hard reboot would have made Diana an alien spy from the planet Zog for the goo people and he knew that would not fly with anyone.

    Which he did, while some people get caught up on ultimately unimportant details.

    While I liked Finch's run, she was editorially mandated to bring Donna back as a villain which didn't sit well in a lot of reader's eyes. Plus, as much as I liked the Finchs' run overall, their revamps of Aegeus and Dr. Poison were lackluster to say the least.

    Now DC can jettison the savage Amazons, adulterous Hippolyta, creeper Orion, Hecate-created Donna, Russian Dr. Poison, and spoiled brat Aegeus and get back to work on making Wonder Woman awesome.
    Nothing Finch did sat well with anyone, that run was an abomination on so many levels; art, writing, story, characterization and everything in between.

    Could have done that with a tweak here or there, a reboot was neither wanted or needed. Especially not when you have to invent a problem then solve it that just happens to take the established setting away.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    He did however have a in-universe mandate to do so in Flashpoint. Rucka does not atm.
    He kind of does with Rebirth.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He kind of does with Rebirth.
    Not really, because Rebirth is/was just Wally coming out of the Speedforce, it didn't change anything unless he actually touched someone.

  4. #34
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I'm fine with this since it means we'll be getting the Rebirth Amazons over the Azzarello Amazons, which I'm perfectly okay with .

  5. #35
    Fantastic Member Graphicisnovel's Avatar
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    It's really amazing to me that no one else seems to have a problem with the art. The face, the proportions, the waist, the boobs, the phoenix force symbol...

    Also this lies story is too slow for me.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntohula View Post
    From what I read, Rucka said he intended to tell a story like this for quite some time. Even before N52. Will be interesting to see where he takes it next, and if it's possible to spot how he'd told the story before N52. Wonder if he'll go as far as they done with N52 Superman.

    Regardless. Quite interesting reading a retcon story. Haven't really read one before (since I'm not very bothered with continuity). I gather New XMEN had a similar big retconning event after Morrison finished up on his story?
    I think its definitely planned to go as far as the Superman changes. Just by different means. Superman flat out replaced him. Wonder Woman won't be doing that, but for all intents and purposes she and Superman will be getting the same nearly wholesale retcons and reversions.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #37
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Because they were either in or close to the top 10 comics sold each month... Wonder Woman was around 90th. The two books clearly worked, Wonder Woman did not, and going along in the same groove that clearly didn't work wasn't going to change anything.



    I'll say I think the reason Aquaman wasn't changed, if anyone remembered the details, would be because of Geoff Johns writing the book.
    Batman... best selling book DC has, not changing what isn't broke.
    Cyborg... completely removed and detached from everything that made him a star in the first place, left on the floor for years before actual development took place.
    Flash... John's pet character Barry, wiped Wally off the face of the map till they thought better of it, even tried to replace him with a version no one liked.
    Green Lanter... See Batman.
    Superman... changing an iconic story is tricky at the best of times, also its virtually timeless. Besides the death of the Kents, his mom was turned into some kickass military person and Krypto was shadowing him throughout his life.



    How about pretty much every single character not on the Justice League? Everyone who was ever a Teen Titan ceased to be and were replaced with other versions, the organization ceased to be and none of that vast group of characters got to retain their origins because of the shift in time that had to allow 5 Robins, but no Teen Titans or sidekicks for anyone else? Everyone out of Wildstorm? Basically everyone connected to the Dark had to be revamped.



    Superboy
    Tim Drake
    Cassandra Sandsmark
    Bart... sorry, Bar-Tor
    etc...
    You just named every *sidekick*, which were redone because the nu52 made every hero younger/newer. Yes, the nu52 totally screwed over the legacy heroes and younger generation, but the original generation was left virtually untouched...except for Wonder Woman.

    There was no editorial mandate to alter original heroes. Azzarello just used it as an excuse to completely re-write the character and completely 100% retcon a 75 year old origin.

    Rucka just fixed it and put it back to where it was before.

    Not really, because Rebirth is/was just Wally coming out of the Speedforce, it didn't change anything unless he actually touched someone.
    No, Rebirth is about the nu52 being a 'fake' 5 year history that someone (Dr. Manhattan, I believe) used to overwrite the 'true,' 10 year DC history (i.e. he somehow 'erased' Post-Crisis and 'replaced' it with Nu52, and now the heroes are figuring that out). Wally is the only one who was 'outside' of this, living in the speedforce, and he remembers the 'true' timeline but was forgotten by everyone until he touches them. Then they recall who they truly were, hence the reason Donna is now a completely different character over in Titans.

  8. #38
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    This reboot plot is just taking too long. I'm at the point where I'm thinking of dropping this book.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Who had their past and origins changed?

    Seriously - what other heroes had their entire history portrayed as a lie and their origin, family and supporting cast completely altered/eliminated?
    Stormwatch.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm fine with this since it means we'll be getting the Rebirth Amazons over the Azzarello Amazons, which I'm perfectly okay with .
    I could almost live with the change if "The Lies" wasn't some of Rucka's "All Time" worst writing.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I just want to know one thing.

    Does all these lies and so forth mean new 52 Diana's events and feats amount to nothing? They never existed? Her battles with First Born, Hades, Strife etc etc? Even her battles in the JL and Superman/Wonder Woman or Action against Zod, Faora, Mongul etc ? Because new 52 Diana was God of War for a while as well and all that is now a lie?

    And is he actually saying Diana was not in her right mind from the time she left the island? So Wonder Woman was kinda unhinged for years? I do not like that and I sure don't care that she couldn't see what was in front her face. It needed Steve to point it out. Her mother doesn't even look the same so why? And no one on the outside knew WW was mentally not functioning right? This is so confusing for me.

    Sure if he wanted he could have redeemed the Amazons but wiping this all out as lies ...also to me reeks of being disrespectful. I was not a fan of JMS Oddessy and I am not a fan of this. If he wanted to reboot he should have. But I blame DC and editors for this. This is just another unnecessary extreme retcon up more retcons that WW has suffered over the years. Will she be better for it? I am not sure she will because he is going to leave in a bit as well. We have had so many origins in the past and even now. I don't think we even needed another new one to add to the many others. But what we do need is good story telling with a decent stable cast and better villains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    Rucka has said that editorial didn't want him to jettison the Azzarello run (which makes since, since Rebirth isn't another reboot). So I suspect there's still more to this than there seems.
    Hopefully.

    Right now, it just looks like really bad writing.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    That might be, but if this is going where it seems to... how exactly can anything from the Azzarello and Finch runs exist, how can Demon Knights? Deathstroke? Action Comics? And the others thats been on this island have happened if it's only ever existed as a lie... so what is the island they are currently standing on that everyone's visited?
    Let alone that people other than Diana seem to be convinced she was the God Of War.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 11-23-2016 at 05:24 PM.

  13. #43
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    Read your Hesiod's Theogony!

    Apate, personification of deceit and daughter of primordial Night, is my suspect. She was the original duchess of deception.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Flashpoint... which rewrote just about everyone's pasts and origins.
    No it didn't, or else it didn't do a good job of clarifying what changes were in place. Batman and Green Lantern largely had their entire histories intact, but somehow squeezed into a five year timeline. Confusion over what was or wasn't canon was a common complaint with the New 52 that lasted up until its end. Had they just rebooted everything, it may not have been the complete mess that it was.

    They couldn't even do a better job of mapping out a post-event universe than the original post-Crisis. That was a very low bar to clear and they couldn't manage it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Not really, because Rebirth is/was just Wally coming out of the Speedforce, it didn't change anything unless he actually touched someone.
    Either way you slice it, it's contrived in-story plot devices to justify a company wide reboot/retooling.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Stormwatch.
    Wonder Woman is one of their flagship characters. Stormwatch is not. Compared to her, they really don't matter all that much. And neither do the various legacy and sidekick characters who got screwed over. But even in their cases, it was easier to just reintroduce new versions of Steph Brown and Cass Cain than it was to salvage Azzarello's Amazons.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Hopefully.

    Right now, it just looks like really bad writing.
    Is it objectively bad writing from a craft stand point, or do you consider it bad because it's erasing something you liked? Because to those who considered the New 52 to be bad writing, calling out those problems in-universe seems pretty great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm fine with this since it means we'll be getting the Rebirth Amazons over the Azzarello Amazons, which I'm perfectly okay with .
    Diana saying that the New 52 Themysicra was a parody of everything her home represented...Rucka may have been a little too harsh there, but there's no denying that it's entirely uncalled for. We have such hilariously over the top stuff like Aleka spitting at the ground at the mere mention of the word musk, the Amazons being aghast at a baby penis, going all black widow on a bunch of sailors for seemingly no reason...some of it seemed like a straw feminist nightmare dreamed up by the MRA.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Diana saying that the New 52 Themysicra was a parody of everything her home represented...Rucka may have been a little too harsh there, but there's no denying that it's entirely uncalled for. We have such hilariously over the top stuff like Aleka spitting at the ground at the mere mention of the word musk, the Amazons being aghast at a baby penis, going all black widow on a bunch of sailors for seemingly no reason...some of it seemed like a straw feminist nightmare dreamed up by the MRA.
    Furthermore? Azz even showed a fair bit of disrespect to Diana's prior origin and the fans of same.

    1.) Saying the clay origin was just a lie, dreamed up to keep Diana safe? Unnecessary. He could've just as easily had Hippolyta go on a raid and come back claiming she "got lucky."

    2.) Choosing Zeus as her father was enough of an insult. Hippolyta would have to be stupid and beyond selfish to get into bed with Zeus. She knows the consequences for her people if Hera finds out. She knows Hera holds her people "sacred" to her, so this is a huge act of betrayal. And? It's freaking ZEUS! The guy who literally INVENTED the Patriarchy! She should be disgusted by the very IDEA of being with him! I don't care HOW good that sex fight was.

    3.) The Amazons being so cruel to Diana because of the rumored clay origin. They live in a world of magic and gods. They grew up with tales of all kinds of strange creatures and stranger origins. How is the idea of a child born of clay so universally unacceptable to them? Heck, if they hate men so much, you'd think they'd be impressed that their queen figured out a way to have a child without male participation!

    4.) The most grievous insult? He just HAD to have Hippolyta sculpting a clay baby when Zeus came to her. To have Hippolyta walk away from her clay baby to jump in bed with Zeus, leaving the half-finished sculpture to be washed away by the ocean like the silly fantasy that it was? That was practically a big middle finger to everyone who liked that origin. "Okay, kids! Now Hippolyta is going to go off and do that thing that REALLY makes a baby! Forget that clay nonsense!" It forever begs the question: if Zeus had been a little late to the "date," and Hippolyta had finished that sculpture? Would we have gotten the Diana we knew and loved? Were the goddesses and Hermes just waiting nearby, ready to bring the baby to life as soon as it was completed?

    I'm sorry, but fans of the original origin have every right to feel slighted. Even if Azz didn't do it on purpose, he created a situation. And now, he's going to have to deal with the consequences of those choices.
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 11-23-2016 at 07:02 PM.
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    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

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