Wonder Woman #11 SPOILERS & DISCUSSION

[numberthirty]

Is it objectively bad writing from a craft stand point, or do you consider it bad because it's erasing something you liked? Because to those who considered the New 52 to be bad writing, calling out those problems in-universe seems pretty great.

One reader's take...

To take this many issues just to get to something this "Been There/Done That", is borderline insulting. It might as well have been Cheetah instead of Wonder Woman. Not that I have any real problem with Cheetah being fleshed out. It's just like "The Lies" winds up being an afterthought.

As for Diana, exactly who is she as an adult? While she's not "Paper Thin", she's not that far off.

As for this issue, how does the entire thing not come to a screeching halt when Steve sees that Diana has a different mother? The rest of the issue is just tripping over it's own two feet.

I'm not saying this never amounts to anything. It's just way short of what the character actually deserves for a new "Rebirth" start/backstory.

[numberthirty]

That's before you even get to that Diana's "Current As Of The Start Of Issue #11" Amazons seem to be the "New52" Amazons, and Diana lets Steve leave the dinner to walk around an island of them by himself.

[SiegePerilous02]

One reader's take...

To take this many issues just to get to something this "Been There/Done That", is borderline insulting. It might as well have been Cheetah instead of Wonder Woman. Not that I have any real problem with Cheetah being fleshed out. It's just like "The Lies" winds up being an afterthought.

As for Diana, exactly who is she as an adult? While she's not "Paper Thin", she's not that far off.

As for this issue, how does the entire thing not come to a screeching halt when Steve sees that Diana has a different mother? The rest of the issue is just tripping over it's own two feet.

I'm not saying this never amounts to anything. It's just way short of what the character actually deserves for a new "Rebirth" start/backstory.

What's "been there/done that" about it? The fact that her mythos is being re-structured to be more like previous, less controversial versions isn't really a retread, it's a repair job that many felt needed to be made.

Diana doesn't have a different mother, it's the same mother with a different hair color and wearing different clothes. One of many details that probably lead to Steve's WTF reaction to the whole affair. The island looking as radically different as it does, plus Philippus and Castalia being absent, is more noteworthy than Hippolyta maybe dyeing her hair.

I'd say re-establishing the positive female influences in Diana's backstory and putting them at the forefront is exactly what the character deserves. Instead of throwing dirt over them, replacing them with male influences, or at best leaving it up to inference.

That's before you even get to that Diana's "Current As Of The Start Of Issue #11" Amazons seem to be the "New52" Amazons, and Diana lets Steve leave the dinner to walk around an island of them by himself.

She left the table to go after him like a minute later.

Memories of the New 52 island and the Rebirth island are at war in Diana's head right now. The danger of this not occurring to her right away isn't that confusing when you remember that Steve wouldn't be in danger of being raped, castrated and/or killed if he wandered around on Rucka's island. The version of the island that she remembered in the flashback panel in #5, so clearly that version is playing out in her head alongside this one.

[numberthirty]

What's "been there/done that" about it?

See the bottom of the last page.

It's someone taking issue with an "Everything You Knew Was Wrong!" story that was well done and came directly before this one.

You even seem like you're having a tough time framing "Steve/Hippolyta" in a way that is even remotely plausible.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Technically I don't think so. Because it was a reboot. It did not riff off an already established continuity as he is doing now . All origin stories I would think have their own elements with similar themes. Not all are the same. So no Azzarello simply told his Wonder Woman story how he sees it with a new origin. It is not pre new 52 Diana he undid. That was long already done by DC before they rebooted. Rucka on the other hand is coming into new 52 continuity and undoing new 52 Diana.

I see the distinction, but I don't see how one or the other is more or less respectful to the previous writer. You're still replacing their version with your version. In fact, Rucka's technique at least gives Azzarello's story some status in the existing continuity (even if it's just "a powerful villain created it as a facade") - an actual reboot wipes it out entirely. Is that more respectful?

What I don't get, yet, is how - just for example - Superman (Nuperman, I guess) interacted alongside Diana with Apollo and the others if they didn't really exist. Were they puppet versions of the "real" Greek gods, pretending to be the real ones as they interacted with people from the outside?

[SiegePerilous02]

See the bottom of the last page.

It's someone taking issue with an "Everything You Knew Was Wrong!" story that was well done and came directly before this one.

You even seem like you're having a tough time framing "Steve/Hippolyta" in a way that is even remotely plausible.

It didn't come directly before this. The Finch mess did. And opinions vary on the Azzarello run and how well done it was. The depiction of the Amazons in particular turned off a lot of people, because it seemed like DC couldn't grasp the concept of a race of independent warrior women without undermining them and making them extreme misandrists. Had Rucka come right after Azzarello and took advantage of his vague plot points to clarify some things it might have worked, but Finch made things worse. There really isn't a way to salvage them without changing things or ignoring them completely, and the latter really isn't an option.

Seeing as how Steve is clearly confused and uncomfortable with what's going on on the island even in the last panel of issue #9, Hippolyta's sudden blonde hair probably factors into that. But since different artists don't draw the same characters the exact same way (see Sharp's Diana and Steve vs. Scott's), it's hard to tell if Hippolyta looks different otherwise. And that means we have to think of Hippolyta as a completely different character every time her hair color changes with a reboot.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Hopefully, the 'big lie' will be that Diana, as in the DCEU movies, is thousands of years old and owes her existence to Zeus's bringing her to life - Zeus, a male. That would be progressive and balanced. It'll be more progressive, when this mysterious 'Jason' shows up....

Funny how "progressiveness" is defined as taking the Wonder Woman mythos and making men more important in it. Not, for example, taking Green Lantern and making Hal Jordan's mother a test pilot. Not making Lara the most brilliant scientist on Krypton, who figures out the planet will be destroyed and creates a spaceship for his son. Not changing any of the many, many father-based stories, which are far more common in comic books and other popular culture, and changing them so that they're mother-based.

No, it's just focusing on the one really iconic, truly female-centric major superhero we had - created specifically to be a counterpoint to all the usual male focus - and making her father the source of all her powers, and adding more men. That's progress for you.

(More on this trope at http://www.themarysue.com/wonder-wom...nal-narrative/.)

[numberthirty]

It didn't come directly before this. The Finch mess did. And opinions vary on the Azzarello run and how well done it was. The depiction of the Amazons in particular turned off a lot of people, because it seemed like DC couldn't grasp the concept of a race of independent warrior women without undermining them and making them extreme misandrists. Had Rucka come right after Azzarello and took advantage of his vague plot points to clarify some things it might have worked, but Finch made things worse. There really isn't a way to salvage them without changing things or ignoring them completely, and the latter really isn't an option.

Which has nothing to do with is being a vastly superior version of "Everything You Thought Was Wrong!".

People are still talking about it in this very thread. I have my doubts anyone will be doing the same in a few years when it comes to "The Lies".

[Vanguard-01]

Funny how "progressiveness" is defined as taking the Wonder Woman mythos and making men more important in it. Not, for example, taking Green Lantern and making Hal Jordan's mother a test pilot. Not making Lara the most brilliant scientist on Krypton, who figures out the planet will be destroyed and creates a spaceship for his son. Not changing any of the many, many father-based stories, which are far more common in comic books and other popular culture, and changing them so that they're mother-based.

No, it's just focusing on the one really iconic, truly female-centric major superhero we had - created specifically to be a counterpoint to all the usual male focus - and making her father the source of all her powers, and adding more men. That's progress for you.

(More on this trope at http://www.themarysue.com/wonder-wom...nal-narrative/.)

A very good point.

For me? That's just one of the many reasons why I liked BvS so much. Now THERE was a progressive story in terms of gender representation. As maligned as the "Martha" scene is, it still makes BvS one of the few stories to put increased importance on Batman's and Superman's MOTHERS instead of their fathers. For decades, both Lara-El and Ma Kent received little or no character development or importance. Superman's primary influences were always Jor-El and Pa Kent. Batman? Same thing. Thomas Wayne got most, if not all the important influence in Bruce's life. Martha pretty much was there to look on in horror and scream as she and her husband were cut down. Nothing more.

[Vanguard-01]

Which has nothing to do with is being a vastly superior version of "Everything You Thought Was Wrong!".

Your opinion. An opinion shared by many others, perhaps. But not the objective fact into which you are attempting to make it.

I find this story superior to Azz's run in every way. So do many others.

People are still talking about it in this very thread. I have my doubts anyone will be doing the same in a few years when it comes to "The Lies".

As long as this is her new origin, it'll be talked about.

Meanwhile? Now that Azz's run is well and truly gone? Get ready to see a LOT less discussion of it around here. It showed up. It did it's damage. It sparked controversy for about five years. Then it was abandoned for something that a lot of us like a lot better. Now that it's gone, there will be much less reason to dwell upon it and how people felt about it. Whenever it IS discussed, it will be discussed in more of an anecdotal format.

[Doctor Bifrost]

If Azzarello really had a clean slate then why did he have to make the clay origin a lie instead of just going with the Zeus origin on its own?

That was fan service and/or an Easter egg. It was also poorly thought out, one of the worst lies Hippolyta could have dreamed up.

I mean, think about it: Hippolyta is afraid that the Greek deities (specifically Hera) are watching the Amazons, and may realize that Diana is Zeus's child, which would create big problems. So she makes up a lie: I created a clay statue and it was brought to life.

But if Hera is checking in on Hippolyta every now and then (the reason for the lie), she would notice that Hippolyta was pregnant, making the lie obvious. Also, Hippolyta had to conceal her nine-month pregnancy and subsequent giving birth from all the Amazons on the island she didn't want in on the secret. Seems a little conspicuous.

In addition, the standard clay origin involves one or more Greek goddesses bringing the statue to life and granting the child powers. But since the Greek gods - Peeping Toms, we're afraid - would know that this wasn't the case, Hippolyta must have made up a further lie to cover that. I wonder how unlikely it was.

The key to a convincing lie is to make it as close to the truth as possible. If Hippolyta had simply said: I had a brief (say, three-day) sojourn off the island, for royal reasons. I met a sweet, handsome mortal man and got pregnant by him. And, look, here I am pregnant, and having a child! Assuming Hera wasn't staring at Hippolyta every minute (we're taking about a 3-day window, rather than a 9-month one), she would never know the difference, and the pregnancy wouldn't have to be concealed, either. And no explanation necessary for how the statue came to life.

(Still need an explanation for the powers, but that's true in either case. I'd go for Hippolyta saying: "I don't know, but perhaps because Diana is the first royal infant born here, the magical island granted her these powers!")

Easy-peasy! But it wouldn't have been a "cute" or "clever" way to refer to a part of the old storyline that had no place in the new one, so they skipped picking something that would have made a lot more sense.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Not really, because Rebirth is/was just Wally coming out of the Speedforce, it didn't change anything unless he actually touched someone.

I don't think that's accurate at all. Dr. Manhattan may have something to say about it.

[numberthirty]

Your opinion. An opinion shared by many others, perhaps. But not the objective fact into which you are attempting to make it.

I find this story superior to Azz's run in every way. So do many others.

Actually, it's not. We can even prove this objectively.

"The Lies" was exactly what we all saw was probably coming five miles out.

Like the "New52" run or not, it was not that. It was better.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Actually, it's not. We can even prove this objectively.

"The Lies" was exactly what we all saw was probably coming five miles out.

Like the "New52" run or not, it was not that. It was better.

You have a highly subjective definition of what "objectively" means.

[Vanguard-01]

Actually, it's not. We can even prove this objectively.

"The Lies" was exactly what we all saw was probably coming five miles out.

Like the "New52" run or not, it was not that. It was better.

Just because a story had an unexpected twist or two doesn't make it better than a story that did not have any. Especially not to the people who didn't like those particular twists and would've been happy if Azz had left them out altogether.

And we knew the conclusion of the New 52 arc in advance as well. Diana was going to eventually defeat the First Born and save the day. That's what superheroes do. The only unexpected parts were the insults to Diana's prior origin. Most of us had no trouble predicting what the next issue would involve.