Wonder Woman #11 SPOILERS & DISCUSSION

[Waterfall]

Wally's return is the reverse of Barry's Flashpoint. His return opened a leak from Speed Force and old timeline is leaking in now.

There are many changes to prove that already.

[Midnighter]

Not really, because Rebirth is/was just Wally coming out of the Speedforce, it didn't change anything unless he actually touched someone.

Ted Kord, Krypto, Creeper, Lobo ,Doomsday ,Psycho Pirate ,Doom Patrol ,Jason Todd , Deathstroke and Catwoman would all strongly disagree with you.

[Midnighter]

Ah the cop out argument... as if the big glowing blue man actually cared enough about the Amazons to single them out like this.

If any argument here is a copout it's yours. You don't refute anything Doctor Bifrost said, you just stick your fingers in your ears and say "la,la I can't hear you."

Why would Doc Manhattan. care about the Amazons? Why would he care about Wally West? Or any of the other multitude of characters he presumably messed with? We don't know yet because DC doesn't want us to know yet.

[LordTrump]

Ted Kord, Krypto, Creeper, Lobo ,Doomsday ,Psycho Pirate ,Doom Patrol ,Jason Todd , Deathstroke and Catwoman would all strongly disagree with you.

What the heck r u talking about

[Midnighter]

What the heck r u talking about

Try reading a comic book once and awhile and you'd know.

[Dr. Poison]

One thing I'm noticing in this thread, is that the only people against this issue's revelations are folks who were fans of Azzarello's run. Remember when you told us to enjoy Azzarello's run for what is was, not what it changed? Give that a shot here and if that doesn't work for you, you can always reread Azzarello's run. Your old comics aren't going anywhere. On the bright side, most of you didn't like the Finchs' run so this story takes that off the table as well. There is a bright side here.

[SiegePerilous02]

It really depresses me that Rucka is discarding the Azz and Chiang's run so haphazardly. Just kind of tossing it aside to restore his pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman. I guess this means great characters like Strife won't be around for the foreseeable future.

This isn't pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman because her history is obviously still different with stuff like Steve not being an old man, Etta being black, she and Barbara being friends, not meeting the Bana yet, etc. The Amazons are restored to their classic selves, and other elements from older runs are being brought back, just put in a new context.

There isn't anyone forgetting or disputing that. They're just suggesting that making massive changes to the previous writer's version is no more, and no less, disrespectful if the excuse is "Pandora changed reality" or the excuse is "some villain messed with Diana's memories."

We also have stuff like Azzarello making the clay birth about the absence of male seed instead of female creation, and the implication that his Amazons are superior because they're flawed ("I'm glad we're not perfect. Because from perfection, nothing can grow."). As if the Amazons were perfect before, and as if the only way to make them flawed was by having them kill men. It was a weird criticism that didn't have any basis in fact.

Azzarello turned the Amazons into cruel supervillains who had sex with men and then killed them, hated men and started conversations with comments about castrating them, would slaughter their own infant sons if a kind (male) Greek deity hadn't come along to save them, and bullied Diana for being "clay" (a habit they continued into their adulthood whenever they were annoyed at her). He turned Hippolyta into a big-time liar from Day 1 and a queen of murderers. And, although Diana was specifically created to be part of a female-centric mythos (as counterpoint to the male-centric and father-centric stories that dominated and still dominate superhero comics, especially DC), Azzarello's elevator pitch was: "You know what makes Diana who she is? Her dad!" (You need a quote? “We’ve cleaned her up. You can describe who she is now. She’s got the specific description now just like Batman or Superman. She’s the daughter of a god.” – Brian Azzarello. Notice who has been added to that description, and who doesn't even get mentioned.)

Now, you may love all that. You're entitled. But to compare it to what Perez did in making them "more warrior focused," as if it were comparable in any way, misses... just about everything that people reacted to in Azzarello.

Why did the Amazons mock her from being clay? If they're so anti-male that they comically spit on the ground at the mere mention of the word "musk," shouldn't the lack of maleness in Diana's creation be considered a good thing?

Indeed, Perez's Amazons were warriors, but they were also poets, philosophers, healers, artists, architects, etc. They were not defined as warriors, and while their wary attitude of men was painted as unfair (if understandable to an extent), they didn't go out of their way to harm any men. Similarly, Morrison's Amazons are more staunchly anti-men than Perez's...but they keep to themselves on their island, don't act as aggressors to kill outside men unless they feel the need to "rescue" their princess, and once they have Steve's word that he's trustworthy, let him go without any issue. There's any number of ways you can make the Amazons flawed while still positively portraying their loving influence on Diana, their accomplishments and not have them murder men. As it stands, Barbara's propaganda speech in #8 is the perfect middle finger to Azzarello's Amazons, and DC's going back to the Amazons Attack, if not sooner.

One thing I'm noticing in this thread, is that the only people against this issue's revelations are folks who were fans of Azzarello's run. Remember when you told us to enjoy Azzarello's run for what is was, not what it changed? Give that a shot here and if that doesn't work for you, you can always reread Azzarello's run. Your old comics aren't going anywhere. On the bright side, most of you didn't like the Finchs' run so this story takes that off the table as well. There is a bright side here.

The conversations are largely the same, just flipped.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Respectfully, I disagree. Azzarello himself said it wasn't a reboot, and instead he made somewhat of a mockery of Diana for being so naive as to believe the 'sculpted from clay' story she had grown up with.

It's better for Azzarello to lie and say it isn't a reboot than for him to hype up dramatic changes months before the book came out.

Furthermore? Azz even showed a fair bit of disrespect to Diana's prior origin and the fans of same.

1.) Saying the clay origin was just a lie, dreamed up to keep Diana safe? Unnecessary. He could've just as easily had Hippolyta go on a raid and come back claiming she "got lucky."

That would spoil the reveal later on of the Amazon's pirate shenanigans and be too much of an info dump. Having the clay origin be a lie is a way of acknowledging it as a previous origin and moving on.

2.) Choosing Zeus as her father was enough of an insult. Hippolyta would have to be stupid and beyond selfish to get into bed with Zeus. She knows the consequences for her people if Hera finds out. She knows Hera holds her people "sacred" to her, so this is a huge act of betrayal. And? It's freaking ZEUS! The guy who literally INVENTED the Patriarchy! She should be disgusted by the very IDEA of being with him! I don't care HOW good that sex fight was.

The inventor of patriarchy as the father of the DCU's greatest feminist was meant to be the idea of the origin. It also connects Diana better to the Greek gods.

4.) The most grievous insult? He just HAD to have Hippolyta sculpting a clay baby when Zeus came to her. To have Hippolyta walk away from her clay baby to jump in bed with Zeus, leaving the half-finished sculpture to be washed away by the ocean like the silly fantasy that it was? That was practically a big middle finger to everyone who liked that origin. "Okay, kids! Now Hippolyta is going to go off and do that thing that REALLY makes a baby! Forget that clay nonsense!" It forever begs the question: if Zeus had been a little late to the "date," and Hippolyta had finished that sculpture? Would we have gotten the Diana we knew and loved? Were the goddesses and Hermes just waiting nearby, ready to bring the baby to life as soon as it was completed?

That's an Easter egg, not an insult. That might not have been in Azzarello's original script for all we know. It's not meant in an insulting way.

So this is how New 52 Superman fans feel like....I started WW comics thanks to Cliff Chiang and Brian Azzarello and it feels so weird now that it's entirely thrown out now. But I'm not mad, it seems Azz already changed many basics so he was probably aware his version wasn't going to stick.

I just hope Greek Gods dramas won't be sidelined for the sake of generic superhero stories, I'm a huge mythology fan and I always loved Diana's relationship with her family.

I'm pretty whatever about them changing it and considered it to be inevitable. Wonder Woman gets revamped and rebooted all the time and big changes like that never stick.

[Natamaxxx]

It's really amazing to me that no one else seems to have a problem with the art. The face, the proportions, the waist, the boobs, the phoenix force symbol...

Also this lies story is too slow for me.

Oh, you're not the only one! The art was somewhat allright at the start, but it's gotten progressively worse with every subsequent issue. Like, bad fan art levels of lifeless and awkward poses. Just look at the cover for this issue! Is Diana letting out a fart?

[Vanguard-01]

It's better for Azzarello to lie and say it isn't a reboot than for him to hype up dramatic changes months before the book came out.

We kinda knew the New 52 was going to make some dramatic changes already. Most of us were prepared to have Diana's origin changed in some way. We're Wonder Woman fans. We're used to this kind of stuff. What we're not used to is being lied to by the guy who's supposed to be writing our character because he was scared that we may have a problem with a new origin, despite him knowing full well that we were going to find out that he was lying to us sooner or later anyway.

That would spoil the reveal later on of the Amazon's pirate shenanigans and be too much of an info dump. Having the clay origin be a lie is a way of acknowledging it as a previous origin and moving on.

No need to reveal everything at once. Diana would've thought she was just another Amazon kid, born the same way the other Amazon kids were born. Apparently, she never wondered where all the Amazon kids come from before Hephaestus dropped THAT bomb on her. She could've found out about the raids then, and found out about Zeus being her specific father later.

The inventor of patriarchy as the father of the DCU's greatest feminist was meant to be the idea of the origin. It also connects Diana better to the Greek gods.

Diana was literally given life by the gods prior to this. In the previous continuity, her powers also came from them. That's plenty of connection right there. She doesn't need to be their direct offspring to be part of their world.

The problem is the idea that Hippolyta would WILLINGLY sleep with Zeus. Sick as it is, I would've honestly been more okay with this origin if it was revealed that Zeus raped Hippolyta or tricked her into sleeping with him, just as he'd done with so many other women. At least then, Hippolyta doesn't look like a selfish idiot, endangering everyone around her for a one-night stand.

That's an Easter egg, not an insult. That might not have been in Azzarello's original script for all we know. It's not meant in an insulting way.

Whether he did it intentionally or not isn't the issue. That scene came across like a big "Eff you!" to the people who weren't happy with this new origin. Whether it was in his original script or not is also irrelevant. If he added it later, then he had already seen that a lot of fans weren't happy with his changes, and he decided to rub some salt in those wounds. If it was in the script all along? It was hardly and essential part of the story. If he was aware that the fans weren't happy, then he could've easily taken that part out and just let sleeping dogs lie.

[LoveStar]

This has been underwhelming and ultimately a bunch of nothing but petty jabbing, retconning. N52 Amazons had problems but I get that the story was all about redemption or Diana trying to redeem them. Either way I found it all more entertaining than this. I liked the N52 Gods especially strife. The Disney Princess thing here is nothing interesting. Cheetah being made to be what she is by a curse and having this poor abuse woman/wife background takes away the true villain aspect she should have. I don't care for Steve, never seen the appeal and still don't. He hasn't been actually needed in 30 years so what makes the difference now. He contributes nothing other than just because....the hero/civilian norm.
All of this new52 stuff was an illusion and lie? So N52 Cheetah, Steve and Etta was an illusion too?

Not really feeling Sharp's art, inconsistant with women, proportions, facial expressions and poses. He is good with backgrounds though.

[HandofPrometheus]

So this is how New 52 Superman fans feel like....I started WW comics thanks to Cliff Chiang and Brian Azzarello and it feels so weird now that it's entirely thrown out now. But I'm not mad, it seems Azz already changed many basics so he was probably aware his version wasn't going to stick.

I just hope Greek Gods dramas won't be sidelined for the sake of generic superhero stories, I'm a huge mythology fan and I always loved Diana's relationship with her family.

Me and you both man. New 52 WW got mevinto WW in the first place. I definitely miss Hera and Orion popping up as support characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

That would spoil the reveal later on of the Amazon's pirate shenanigans and be too much of an info dump. Having the clay origin be a lie is a way of acknowledging it as a previous origin and moving on.

The pirate shenanigans was done for shock value and not much else. Did we get one noteworthy character out of the male Amazons? Did we ever get clarification as to why the raids are necessary or why the Amazons hate men so much that the boys are forbidden on the island? Nope. A lot of us hung on in the hope that Hephaestus's story wasn't entirely what it seemed, and stringing us along to build up dramatic tension before a reveal would have been perfectly valid. But Azzarello didn't do that, what we saw is what we got.

And with the raids being part of Amazon culture...why didn't Hippolyta say she slept with some guy in Man's World during a raid instead of making up the stupid clay fairy tale? Wouldn't that draw less attention then declaring the clay baby a gift from the Gods, when Hera actually lives with said Gods and could easily ask what the deal was. And none of the other goddesses seem to care about the Amazons in the slightest anyway, so who rushed to claim credit for the miracle to help Hippolyta cover up her lie?

The inventor of patriarchy as the father of the DCU's greatest feminist was meant to be the idea of the origin. It also connects Diana better to the Greek gods.

It was an incredibly stupid idea, at least the way it is done. We have more than enough male driven narratives in comics, we didn't need the one major feminine narrative overshadowed by Zeus. The DCU's greatest female hero is where she is because of the male influences in her life. The female influences are left to the imagination. I can't believe something written in the 1940s is more progressive than something written in 2011.

She didn't need to be more connected to the Greek gods. They don't even need to appear in person that much. She's from that world, but the're just window dressing while the main point was for Marston to get his philosophies and fetishes on the printed page.

[hellacre]

This has been underwhelming and ultimately a bunch of nothing but petty jabbing, retconning. N52 Amazons had problems but I get that the story was all about redemption or Diana trying to redeem them. Either way I found it all more entertaining than this. I liked the N52 Gods especially strife. The Disney Princess thing here is nothing interesting. Cheetah being made to be what she is by a curse and having this poor abuse woman/wife background takes away the true villain aspect she should have. I don't care for Steve, never seen the appeal and still don't. He hasn't been actually needed in 30 years so what makes the difference now. He contributes nothing other than just because....the hero/civilian norm.
All of this new52 stuff was an illusion and lie? So N52 Cheetah, Steve and Etta was an illusion too?

Not really feeling Sharp's art, inconsistant with women, proportions, facial expressions and poses. He is good with backgrounds though.

Wonder when Gal's WW daughter of Zeus comes around how much hate that will get?

But you know the Greek Gods are actually jerks. Azzarello actually looked at them as flawed as they are and not fairygodmothers. I will say Strife is a better antagonist than Cheetah. And why this WW even dreaming these things Rucka wants to retcon? This is why it all just falls flat. You can't come and claim new 52 Wonder Woman was really your Wonder Woman mind controlled. You're just being lazy and highhanded. Azzarello never put Superman in the Wonder Woman book and never referenced their relationship but nowhere did he blatantly have Diana saying and doing other things to undermine Soule's work. Writers can ignore stuff they want from a previous run or even what is going on in other books but they don't have to come and upturn it like this by saying events never happened and create a whole new character and then want to claim she is the same one who was always here. That is going to be called out. But he doesn't want to work what DC has as a foundation and retool what bothered the fans like the amazon raids etc. He wants to be the one to define her. But Rebirth WW is simply not that good and not that new to justify this whole wipeout. It's just a more saccharin retelling of Perez's Diana with Steve aged down as in Year One and unfortunately modern Diana is dull. She lacks even the spirit of pre new 52 Diana. I just keep mostly seeing a sad, miserable, crying, confused, languid, pouty face.

[numberthirty]

One thing I'm noticing in this thread, is that the only people against this issue's revelations are folks who were fans of Azzarello's run. Remember when you told us to enjoy Azzarello's run for what is was, not what it changed? Give that a shot here and if that doesn't work for you, you can always reread Azzarello's run. Your old comics aren't going anywhere. On the bright side, most of you didn't like the Finchs' run so this story takes that off the table as well. There is a bright side here.

If we were just talking about any other story line, I'd agree.

That said, we are talking about a run that is meant to set the stage for cohesive storytelling going forward. Judging it by that metric, it has been an abject failure.

Here's a pretty simple question. If any on the fans of the "Rebirth" Rucka run can answer it, I'll go ahead and just keep on reading while giving this mess a chance.

What, exactly, does adult Diana believe her backstory is during the beginning of "Rebirth"?