Wonder Woman #11 SPOILERS & DISCUSSION

[numberthirty]

Maybe there are truths hidden among the lies. Who knows? The story isn't over yet. I do believe that "The story isn't over yet" was the battle cry of the New 52 fans throughout all the criticism of Azz's run. It certainly was MY battle cry when I tried to defend the run against the more extreme anti-Azz fans back in the day.

Why does Azz get this kind of courtesy, but Rucka doesn't?

Pretty simple.

If you bill "The Lies" as a six issue arc as a part of "Rebirth", I'm going to expect something more than a question mark at the end. Even you are talking about quite a bit of "I don't know. Maybe?..." going forward.

[Dr. Poison]

So the lasso was corrupted this whole time until now? So sense the new52 was an illusion none of the events that took place actually happened either? She went to this island illusion throughout also so like where was she actually going? Was Hessia an illusion too?

Considering how little Azzarello actually used the Lasso's truth properties, I'd say "yes". It was a garnish in Wonder Woman's arsenal.

[LoveStar]

We don't know what, if anything, will remain from the nu52. Hessia is part of a mini-series coming up, so I'm assuming she was still around.

As to the lasso? This is where the question comes in, what is more powerful, the lasso or Doctor Manhattan re-writing reality? There's also the definition of 'truth.' After Doc Manhattan altered the world, the nu52 *was* 'The Truth' until Wally began to unravel it all. Azzarello took 3 years to tell his story. Rucka is only 6 issues in at the moment (the other 5 being backstory). I'm looking forward to where he goes from here.

Hessia was created in a book in which she was Diana's mentor/friend and talked about the complication of a relationship Diana now says was easy and a mistake. Hessia is from the new52 island. Where is she now in rebirth? She might look totally different or didn't exist. The mini might not even matter or even answer these questions. It all seems contradictory.

[Vanguard-01]

That's the whole point. The best you have is "Looks to me..."

We have no real window into exactly what she thought it was. If you are going to write an "Everything You Knew Is A Lie" story like "The Lies" appears to be, exactly where we are starting from is of critical importance.

It "looked to me" in Azz's run that the Amazons were going to eventually be revealed to have a redeeming trait or two. Funny, that never happened.

It "looked to me" at the beginning of the New 52 that Diana's origin was largely unchanged, until Azz came stomping in and crapped on everything about Diana's origin that I liked.

It "looked to me" like there would be a big payoff at the end of Azz's run that would somehow make my patience worthwhile. Didn't happen.

"Looks to me" is how EVERYONE looks at and interprets stories.

Like I've said, sub par writing.

Still your opinion. Not a fact. Never gonna be a fact.

That's before you even get to that even you are saying "it would appear..." at the end of the story.

That's a whole other can of worms.

"The story isn't over yet! Gosh! Why don't you people let Azz tell his story before you judge it!" -- Numberthirty and just about every other Azz fan: 2011-2013.

The story isn't over yet! Gosh! Why don't you let Rucka tell his story before you judge it!

And that "appears to be" comment was meant to be slightly condescending, since the answer to your oh-so-important question seemed so utterly obvious. Apologies.

[Dr. Poison]

Pretty simple.

If you bill "The Lies" as a six issue arc as a part of "Rebirth", I'm going to expect something more than a question mark at the end. Even you are talking about quite a bit of "I don't know. Maybe?..." going forward.

Azz had mini-arc within his 3 year arc. Many of those mini arcs opened up more questions than they actually answered.

[LoveStar]

Considering how little Azzarello actually used the Lasso's truth properties, I'd say "yes". It was a garnish in Wonder Woman's arsenal.

Azzarello may have not used it but she used it mostly in Justice League and Superman/Wonder Woman

[numberthirty]

In Wonder Woman Rebirth, I believe she think the Azzarello back story is correct due to the the fact that she is still dressed in the Lee/Chiang costume.

See how you are talking in terms of "I believe"? That's an issue.

If we are reading a story that is functioning as a means to create a cohesive back story(which is absolutely how this was pitched), "Looks To Me..." and "I Believe..." aren't going to cut it. At the very least, we need to know just where we are starting from.

[hellacre]

So the lasso was corrupted this whole time until now? So sense the new52 was an illusion none of the events that took place actually happened either? She went to this island illusion throughout also so like where was she actually going? Was Hessia an illusion too?

No idea what the heck is going on. The lasso can be corrupted for so long...that is some power...but what's the point of the lasso? But hey if Batman can create an anti lasso and other people can break it ...why not? Why not make Diana's lasso useless.

Hessia was a Soule creation. Rucka claims WW and SM had some kinda thing...I don't buy it even though he says it. That is the irony though as well isn't it? I don't believe him because I know its not true because she is not the same character. It's a deal breaker when it comes me being unable to suspend belief. This Rebirth Wonder Woman is not new 52 Diana. Why do they keep trying to claim she is? Hessia therefore as far as I see is fake as well. Hessia fought a Doomsday virus Superman with Diana with her God Mode powers intervening. Again all of that could not have happened. Many things could not have happened. Rucka is not only trying to dictate what happens in Wonder Woman but it also extends to went down in Superman/Wonder Woman, Justice League and other new 52 books. Heck the Hellbat suit cannot exist based on what he's done.

When fans have to contort their minds to such extremes to try to justify what is just a lazy and abrupt wipeout...not retcon...a wipeout...I would say DC just made a mess again. I will be watching the digging out with interest because when Rucka leaves there is nothing to stop other writers from coming in and wiping out this. DC should not give any one writer such autonomy over canon, to the point he just tosses out the work of others with one lazy cliche...Lies and Mind Control.

[numberthirty]

Still your opinion. Not a fact. Never gonna be a fact.

If you are writing a story that is meant to create a new back story where all of the previous back stories are accounted for, it is bad writing not to even give the readers a good idea where things are when the story begins.

That's not really an opinion.

[numberthirty]

"Looks to me" is how EVERYONE looks at and interprets stories.

There should be zero room to "Interpret" where a story that is most likely a beginning for many readers is starting.

That's before you even address that there should also be zero room to "Interpret" where we are starting when it comes to having to reconcile a number of potential back stories.

[numberthirty]

Azz had mini-arc within his 3 year arc. Many of those mini arcs opened up more questions than they actually answered.

Not the story of her background.

I can tell you exactly what it is. No "I Believe..." or "From What I Can Tell..."

[LoveStar]

Or it was simply unable to cut through the Lies around Diana until recently, which is what I actually said.



Maybe there are truths hidden among the lies. Who knows? The story isn't over yet. I do believe that "The story isn't over yet" was the battle cry of the New 52 fans throughout all the criticism of Azz's run. It certainly was MY battle cry when I tried to defend the run against the more extreme anti-Azz fans back in the day.

Why does Azz get this kind of courtesy, but Rucka doesn't?

Seems convinient. But what about Steve? He was changed too to fit this year one story. He is totally different from new52 and seems even more deaged. His only thing that didn't change was him moping because Diana moved on

[Mel Dyer]

Funny how "progressiveness" is defined as taking the Wonder Woman mythos and making men more important in it. Not, for example, taking Green Lantern and making Hal Jordan's mother a test pilot. Not making Lara the most brilliant scientist on Krypton, who figures out the planet will be destroyed and creates a spaceship for his son. Not changing any of the many, many father-based stories, which are far more common in comic books and other popular culture, and changing them so that they're mother-based.

No, it's just focusing on the one really iconic, truly female-centric major superhero we had - created specifically to be a counterpoint to all the usual male focus - and making her father the source of all her powers, and adding more men. That's progress for you...

'Yes' to everything you just said. All of that AND a new Villainy, Inc. that includes: Doctor Cyber (standing in for Eviless), the original Silver Swan (for Queen Clea), the Cheetah, Giganta, Mayfly, Osira (for Zara), the Silver Age Circe (for Hypnota), Doctor Poison...

And no men!

[Agent Z]

Essentially taking Hippolyta out of the equation.

How?

And he was only a catalyst in the run as well. Nowhere to be seen, till he was revealed as Athena's mother as well as being a baby to be nurtured by his mothers, the amazons. A patriarch underneath a matriarchy.

This is a really fancy way of saying he basically got away with everything he did and is now being pampered by women he abused.

[borntohula]

This is a really fancy way of saying he basically got away with everything he did and is now being pampered by women he abused.

More like a fancy way avoiding mentioning that he became his own father. Because it slipped my mind.

But yeah. Basically, he got away. As in disappeared completely.

He was also the only reason she was born, the only reason she had powers, and the only reason why the gods gave a crap about her.

Way to take Hippolyta out of the equation... Hippolyta gave bore and gave birth to Diana. But you put it well describing Hippolyta here:

Hippolyta sculpted the baby because she wanted a child to love. That was always her contribution to her birth. Then she became important because she raised Diana and taught her to be the hero that she is meant to be.

He wasn't "underneath" a matriarchy. He manipulated that matriarchy into serving his latest scheme to escape responsibility for his past crimes, and they played their role as his pawns perfectly. And since Azz made no effort to elaborate on it, there is no reason at all to believe that even his new upbringing would cause him to grow into anything close to a better person. Zeus was raised by women in his FIRST infancy, I remind you. He still grew up to be a misogynist and a murderer.

Escaping what responsibility? He had a carte blanche on mischief. Untouchable. No conscience, nor consequence.

Athena says he either didn't like what he'd become, or having a laugh. IMO it doesn't matter which. I'm pretty sure he took a similar route (way out) as Ares.

Zeus parents where the gods. He "now" (where the story ends) has Diana (queen of the amazons/the god of war) looking after him. The world ruled by WAR, just like Ares said in WW#4.

Regardless: In my mind it went well enough. Finchs story -obviously- took place in a separate universe (the multiverse is endless), and WAR was proven right

Or maybe, as far as she knows, she really doesn't have a dad. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Do you mean as in that she doesn't care (since he was never there) and not having any concept of what a "father" is (since there are none on the island.)?