Where did it all go wrong?

[Sutekh]

If we can just have people disagree without one or both sides being made out to be a monster in modern writing that'd be great.

That is hugely annoying, and not just in modern writing, but in life in general. Someone agrees with me on 90% of things, but disagrees with me on this one single important thing? Monster! Hitler! Argh!

That sort of hyperbolic drama queen nonsense, where one side has to demonize the other, rather than point out the validity / superiority of their own side (or work together to find common ground) gets boring. Most of these characters, thanks to years of back and forth characterization between different writers, can be twisted to support almost any position, and you can dig up 'canon' support to back it up. But the second any two characters (or teams, etc.) come into conflict, everything bad they've ever been associated with, even if it was clearly bad writing and has been disavowed/retconned since, gets dredged up and flung like weapons. That said, they are super-people, and writers are hardly encouraged by the fans to write stories in which Cap and Iron Man sit down and discuss how they are going to work together to mitigate the worst potential abuses of a Registration Act, since fan reaction would probably include a lot of 'why does Bendis have everyone sit around and talk all the time, why isn't there more action?'

And so Scott doesn't get to 'talk down' Jean in a victory for love and compassion, instead Xavier has to overreact and turn it into a tragedy. Xavier looks like an ass, in the process, but the narrative requires folks with super-powers to use those super-powers (even on each other) rather than the stuff that makes them human. It's kind of like how super-characters are prone to use their powers on each other violently as a sort of 'warning,' including zaps and blasts or popping claws and waving them around rather than using their words like grownups to diffuse a tense situation. The genre doesn't really call for much in the way of temperance or moderation or thoughtful responses. Even the heroes come across as wanting to solve every problem with fast violence and their biggest weapons (even if their biggest weapon is a mental blast).

[yet another]

And so Scott doesn't get to 'talk down' Jean in a victory for love and compassion, instead Xavier has to overreact and turn it into a tragedy. Xavier looks like an ass, in the process, but the narrative requires folks with super-powers to use those super-powers (even on each other) rather than the stuff that makes them human. It's kind of like how super-characters are prone to use their powers on each other violently as a sort of 'warning,' including zaps and blasts or popping claws and waving them around rather than using their words like grownups to diffuse a tense situation. The genre doesn't really call for much in the way of temperance or moderation or thoughtful responses. Even the heroes come across as wanting to solve every problem with fast violence and their biggest weapons (even if their biggest weapon is a mental blast).

Well sure, it's supposed to be visual, exciting storytelling for juveniles, maybe with a moral lesson inserted here or there if the writer can think of a suitable one.

The other way around we just get a lot of talking heads. (Hello Bendis!)

[Ru5152]

I take the opposite view on this.

Had Morrison been given the "let the genius do whatever he wants" treatment at Marvel that he gets at DC he probably stays on
Xmen as long as he stayed on Batman.

So that is about 5 years of critically acclaimed writer (and artist... most likely-star writers get top artistic talent) and guaranteed top 10 sales before
you have to hand off the property to either a Whedon or Fraction.

The book might have other problems but creative irrelevancy would not be one of them.

Unless you find the ' genius's ' body of work creatively irrelevant, and take genius to mean overrated. Igor Kordey and Frank Quitely being 'top talent' is a stretch. Critically acclaimed doesn't hold much weight. The film No Country for Old Men is proof of that, but that's another topic. Morrison destroyed Batman too. I've never understood the appeal. But I find Alan Moore to be another whiny bitch too.

[yogaflame]

Quoting Ann Nocenti, it began to go wrong 'when Marvel was bought by a lipstick salesman' (=Ronald Perelman, from MacAndrews & Forbes Inc.). That is, when the owner forced the editors to stop worrying about making a good work and to start worrying about making the maximum of money in the minimum of time. Chrome covers, grim and gritty, boobs and beefcakes, firearms, the end of the world as we know it in every issue, neverending crossovers, artist celebrities... Pure financial speculation.

Sometime before CC was replaced by Lee, you could notice the disastrous effects of this policy in his writing. He was obviously uncomfortable and upset, and he wasn't allowed to do what he thought it was better. Even so, being his last issues so inferior to his average, Lee's arrival to words immediatly evinced (much to our misfortune) that an impressive artist doesn't necessary make an impressive writer.

That was a point of hard return, IMO.

Re: Morrison. His run was one of the very few which got my interest (praiseworthy, since none of the characters were a favorite of mine).

I agree with your assessment, and that last part particularly.

Morrison brought a lot to the franchise that had largely been in a holding pattern since Claremont's oust. I had let go of X-Men(and comics) in the late 90's because I'd lost interest, and Morrison's run(and Claremont's X-Treme) brought me back into the fold, with excitement. I haven't been as excited by the comics since, with rare, fleeting exclusions.

[cranger]

I agree with your assessment, and that last part particularly.

Morrison brought a lot to the franchise that had largely been in a holding pattern since Claremont's oust. I had let go of X-Men(and comics) in the late 90's because I'd lost interest, and Morrison's run(and Claremont's X-Treme) brought me back into the fold, with excitement. I haven't been as excited by the comics since, with rare, fleeting exclusions.

It may have been a coincidence, but I came back after a nearly decade long break right into the early part of Morrison's run and it brought me right back in. While people might not have liked it, I am not sure myself how I look back on it, they must forget it was just one of several titles that all still had pretty independent stuff going on and obviously were not being messed around by editorial to the degree we see following House of M. Sure, there might be some things that can be blamed on that run, but nothing about it in and of itself did anything to the X-Men that was not possible to change, retcon or outright ignore the second Morrison left.

[yogaflame]

It may have been a coincidence, but I came back after a nearly decade long break right into the early part of Morrison's run and it brought me right back in. While people might not have liked it, I am not sure myself how I look back on it, they must forget it was just one of several titles that all still had pretty independent stuff going on and obviously were not being messed around by editorial to the degree we see following House of M. Sure, there might be some things that can be blamed on that run, but nothing about it in and of itself did anything to the X-Men that was not possible to change, retcon or outright ignore the second Morrison left.

For me, he is the second great run. Stan Lee and Roy Thomas set the stage(but my goodness, those early issues are hard to chew, I've been re-reading them and its no wonder the series was put in reprints and nearly canceled), and then Len Wein mixed it all up and handed it to Chris Claremont, who really made the X-Men into the mega-concept it became. Then Lobdell et all carried the dwindling light for a while, until Morrison reignited it with his run. The later writers since have just been walking in the shadows of those two great runs.

[Cykewasright]

And don't forget onslaught or putting mags to lead the new mutants

Mags leading the New Mutants was a really good read though

[Neko]

To be fair, the expanded school concept was a mandate from Marvel editorial, due to the use of a large, young student body in the first X-Men film by Singer. This is in contrast to all previous X-Men canon, which never had more than 2 dozen mutants at Xavier's at a time(and that was only a brief time when both Gold/Blue X-Men teams and X-Force shared the same roof).

Furthermore, this is where the X-Men as teachers thing comes in too. While senior X-Men have always trained with their own teammates and the junior squads to a certain extent, they never pretended to be actual preparatory school teachers(other than Michael Xavier(Magneto's alter ego when he briefly was the New Mutants headmaster while Charles was in Shi-Ar space getting medical treatment).

In both cases(large student bodies and X-Men as teachers), Morrison executed them better than any later writers and any attempts on the big screen with Fox. It tends to neuter the characteristics of the X-Men themselves(Logan as a professor is laughable), and creates too many, underdeveloped(and thus highly expendable) students, which we see painfully in the movies and later comics. At least Morrison's student body were memorable(some still appear in main roles), and his core X-Men team still highly effective tactically.

I think trying to marry the movie verse with comic verse wasn't a good idea. I do get what you are saying and would agree that the influence was probably wanted at the time until it became rampant with writers creating whatever mutant they wanted. I think it was too much.

I think I liked the concept of the school as a cover better than actually being a school.

Meant to reply sooner but you know …. it is the holidaze.

[yogaflame]

I think trying to marry the movie verse with comic verse wasn't a good idea. I do get what you are saying and would agree that the influence was probably wanted at the time until it became rampant with writers creating whatever mutant they wanted. I think it was too much.

I think I liked the concept of the school as a cover better than actually being a school.

Meant to reply sooner but you know …. it is the holidaze.

I think Singer's[et al] X-Men films have completely missed the mark, and his big school was a first, obvious blunder. I wish they had never happened.

The expanded school concept had gone overboard, in the comics, and while I have abhorred the various extinction events that have dominated the comics for the last decade, at least it did cut down on the superfluous kids.

I too, much prefer the idea of Xavier's school as a cover story/hidden facility, and think the X-Men and any affiliated squads should just focus on honing their powers and teamwork, and get out there and kick some butt. I mean, at one level, keeping the whole thing secret was counter-productive to the supposed goal of human/mutant integration, but on the other, it was a tactically sound one(insofar as keeping a sanctuary for mutants to exist in a hostile world). Also, traditional education is completely obsolete with a bunch of super-powered psis around, so why even waste the time/energy?

I was very pleased in X-Treme X-Men when Storm was like, let Charles be a teacher, I am going to focus on making sure there's even a world for those kids to exist in! To then later see Storm get sucked into Wolverine's Jean Grey School and call herself 'headmistress' and make all the kids wear stupid prep school uniforms and sit behind a desk grading papers or whatever, it was just heart-breaking. Hopefully this RessurXion will get the X-Men back on track, but I am not holding my breath.

And, of course, by all mean, enjoy the holidays!

[iacobusleo]

I think Singer's[et al] X-Men films have completely missed the mark, and his big school was a first, obvious blunder. I wish they had never happened.

The expanded school concept had gone overboard, in the comics, and while I have abhorred the various extinction events that have dominated the comics for the last decade, at least it did cut down on the superfluous kids.

I too, much prefer the idea of Xavier's school as a cover story/hidden facility, and think the X-Men and any affiliated squads should just focus on honing their powers and teamwork, and get out there and kick some butt. I mean, at one level, keeping the whole thing secret was counter-productive to the supposed goal of human/mutant integration, but on the other, it was a tactically sound one(insofar as keeping a sanctuary for mutants to exist in a hostile world). Also, traditional education is completely obsolete with a bunch of super-powered psis around, so why even waste the time/energy?

See, I think the school is ESSENTIAL to the X-Men story. The school is needed to guide the next generation of mutants to learn how to live as functioning, integrated members of society, to let them be free to live whatever lives they wished if they ended up not choosing to become superheroes. Telling children 'Hey, we can just download information into our brains using psychic powers, no hard work required' is telling them that as mutants, they have the right to abuse their powers and take the easy way out. The school also allows our main characters to find a way to carry on Xavier's dream without resorting to punching and kicking.

Without the school, the X-Men are just superheroes, and they are just training child soldiers. Not only does this mean they are immediately less interesting, this actively harms their message of integration.

But then again, reading through the comments here it seems there is a sizable amount of people who prefer the X-Men to just be superheroes. I on the other hand was attracted to the X-Men because they WEREN'T just superheroes. XD

[ariwl1]

For me when I think of the great the runs they consistently have two things: a sense of forward motion and an understanding of tone.

Both Claremont and Morrison explored "the metaphor" in ways that made sense (usually) and were relevant to the time period. The X-Men have always had a more challening go of it creatively because of their nature. They are superheroes, but superheroes are laregly reactionary forces. They respond to threats to maintain a peaceful status quo. Beating up over the top villains is fun, but if this is all the X-Men did they are no more deep than most any other costumed crimefighter.

Also tone. I grew up in the 90's and have more comics from that era than other. There's a lot about that time I love, but if I had to sum up the X-Men of that period in one word it would be "dreary". Aside from the rare bright spot being an X-Man sucked then, and a lot of the stories don't seem nearly as inviting then as when I was a kid.

Claremont and Morrison were different. That isn't to say that their runs were necessarily happy. Claremont loved torturing his characters and Morriosn opened his run with straight up genocide. But despite all the bad stuff Claremont's books reveled in the relationships of its characters and the hope found in that, and Morrison had the X-Men realize (even if C. Nova forced them) that they had to do more and take a more open and courageous stance if things were to get better for mutantkind. The rotten stuff that happened to the X-Men wasn't just about beating them with the misery stick. When Phoenix died on the moon, while the team felt tremendous loss under the cirucmstances they also won. And when Doug Ramsey died it forced the New Mutants to grow up and begin seriously questioning their authority figures.

[zinderel]

I'm not going to call out any specific writers, because NO writer is perfect. That said, if I have to pinpoint ONE thing that started the decline of the X-Men, it'd have to be when the Claremont Era ended. Not because Claremont was/is some flawless god of writing perfection or anything, but because for...what, twenty years or so?...Chris Claremont WAS the X-Men. One writer, dedicated to the Mutant pocket of the Marvelverse, to the themes it addressed and the characters who dealt with those themes, and to telling complex, fantastic-yet-grounded-in-basic-humanity stories that often took years to pay off, but DID PAY OFF. Logically, and in satisfying and heartbreaking and mind-blowing ways. Ways that made readers want to buy back issues to learn about the hints and threads they'd missed.

After Claremont left when Marvel decided to focus on art over story as a way to combat the rise of Image during the Dark Ages of the 90's, The X-Universe hasn't had a single writer stick around for more than a few brief years, if that long, and the stories have ABSOLUTELY suffered for it. We've had dozens of seriess come and go, some cut way too soon, others existing for no reason anyone can really fathom. We've had 'superstar' writers come through and leave the line more muddled and confusing than it was before they came, and no editorial restraint or focus. With no constant, careful hand guiding the stories and shaping the universe, we've had brief bursts of brilliance that go unappreciated amongst the mediocre. We've had terrible, best forgotten stories published alongside runs that became classic. There's no consistency to the X-Verse anymore, and that's caused the series to seem fractured, unmoored, and directionless. There are SO many different titles, 90% of which are barely given any time to spread their wings and fly, that it's a chore to read them all, and the line feels hopelessly diluted because of it.

In my opinion, Marvel needs to hire an Editor (and/or a HEAD Writer for the X-Line) with a guaranteed/contracted tenure of 10 years, barring catastrophe, who will do his job and EDIT. Someone who will guide the line and it's overall arcs, who will CARE about the characters and the shared universe they inhabit. Who will rein in the excesses of 'superstar' writers/artists who want to tell stories at the expense of history and characters' core values, and who can't get their work done in a timely manner. We need someone who will trim away the fat and restore a sense of focus to the line. Someone who understands that more isn't always better, and that over-saturating the market doesn't make a product MORE desirable...

I'd say we also need to limit the X-Line to 5 core ongoings AT MOST, while still allowing for numerous limited-run series exploring this or that character/pocket of the X-Verse without demanding the investment - financial and emotional - that 'Ongoing series!' tends to force the consumer into. Until we get that - or another Claremont - I don't see the X-Verse getting any better, though I admit to some small measure of hope that IvX and ResurreXion may be a way to restore some semblance of quality. Only time will tell, though...

Edit: When i say 5 at most, the best example I can think of where that worked is the era I like to call the Golden Age of X, where we had Blue, Gold, X-Factor, Excalibur, and X-Force, with anything else being a limited-run series, a miniseries, or a prestige format special edition. Certainly you can argue that Generation X was up there as well, making that Golden Age an era of 6 titles, but the market HAS changed, and as I said above, more doesn't always mean better, particularly with the price of comics today...

[yogaflame]

See, I think the school is ESSENTIAL to the X-Men story. The school is needed to guide the next generation of mutants to learn how to live as functioning, integrated members of society, to let them be free to live whatever lives they wished if they ended up not choosing to become superheroes. Telling children 'Hey, we can just download information into our brains using psychic powers, no hard work required' is telling them that as mutants, they have the right to abuse their powers and take the easy way out. The school also allows our main characters to find a way to carry on Xavier's dream without resorting to punching and kicking.

Without the school, the X-Men are just superheroes, and they are just training child soldiers. Not only does this mean they are immediately less interesting, this actively harms their message of integration.

But then again, reading through the comments here it seems there is a sizable amount of people who prefer the X-Men to just be superheroes. I on the other hand was attracted to the X-Men because they WEREN'T just superheroes. XD

Look, I get it, if you can fly, you should also know how to walk. That's fine. But you should also freaking fly. And fly to the fullest extent of your ability. While his best ideas were used in The Ultimates, Mark Millar's Ultimate X-Men had some cool ideas in it too. Like when Jean used her telepathy to learn how to become a [pioneering, advanced] surgeon to save Beast's life. Should she not have used her powers, which are a god-given birthright to her, as natural as eyesight or manual dexterity, to learn this skill and save her friend? Should she have taken years and years to do it the human way? That would be a waste of her abilities.

I've been reading the original run of X-Men, which was the most schooly of the entire run before the Morrison run, and they aren't doing algebra. Other than their blue/gold trainers, they don't have uniforms. Their primary pursuit is learning to control their powers in the Danger Room. There may have been slight allusions to regular course work, but it has never been shown in the first 40-odd issues I've gotten through already.

In all of Claremont's run, the NM(in their own book for the most part) are the most schooly the concept goes. Sure, Kitty has to do homework inbetween missions, and even Piotr might have had some too, but for the most part, Claremont's X-Men are superheroes. They even spend a good chunk of his run NOT at Xavier's. I like the X-Men first and foremost as an action-adventure/emergency response team, attuned to world-ending events, and as search/rescue for mutant-centric missions. They sold their most issues doing that, not in stuffy Harry Potter uniforms, writing research papers. Xavier's School has always supposed to be a bridge to the outer world. Jean was taking college courses in the original run at Metro University. Beast and Ice-Man went off to school at various points too. Xavier's should be the mastery of their mutant powers, first and foremost, so they can interact with baseline humans without accidentally hurting them/being able to actually do good in emergency situations.

[JasonEsta]

No surprising...when it all.revolved around Cyclops year after year, of course it's going to fall off.

[yogaflame]

No surprising...when it all.revolved around Cyclops year after year, of course it's going to fall off.