Where did it all go wrong?

[spirit2011]

It all went wrong when Marvel kicked out Claremont for Jim Lee. No one knew more about these characters than Claremont. And Jim Lee left like, 5 months later to do his own thing with Homage/WildStorm/Image anyways.

Lobdell et all were able to keep the wheel turning through the 90's, but the damage had already been done. Claremont's brief Revolution run wasn't his best work, but it certainly wasn't the worst the franchise has seen either.

I am actually a fan of Morrison's run for the most part(his ending did indeed suck, but I also understand that involves his breakdown with Marvel, on the meta-level also), he reinvigorated the franchise in a way that had not been seen since Claremont first came on board in the 70's. That time also saw the return of Claremont in X-Treme, which was actually quite fun.

The post-Morrison/Claremont era to me is the final death kneel. No More Mutants pulled the rug out from under a fertile concept(a burgeoning mutant population that was indeed set to replace humans within a generation) that was barely explored, and the X-Men have been on a constant decline since.

Obviously the movie rights play heavily into all this as well.

Here's hoping Resurrexion will be a course correction, but given the new realities of the Disney-Marvel mass media era, I don't think X-Men will ever reach the heights Claremont left them at in X-Men #3(1991) again.

kick the writer to choose the artist is never a good decision.

[somacula]

When they started assassinating Xavier's character in the mid 00s to make Cyclops look good, that ugliness led into the pissing war with Wolverine and Beast and this whole whose right business.

I'll accept the Xavier thing... But regarding wolverine or beast that's Jason Aaron that wanted to turn wolverine into some sort of moral compass against cyclops, and that's not who wolverine is... Add to the fact that he sided against the X men and was the biggest hypocrite post avx along with beast (and his illuminati bullshit) and they look terrible in comparison to Cyclops... And that's not Bendis or gillen or fraction fault , they wrote cyclops at varying degrees of quality but he was consistent... And the whole cyclops was right was an audience reaction that writers added to their books because it proved popular

[blanchett]

I think everyone has periods that they remember fondly. No X-Men period is a total hit with all fans but I think the things are at all time low.

I don't mean that we don't have talented people working on the books, because we do but this whole M-Pox storyline has required too much suspension of belief from the audience. There are a billion character who could have resolved this scenario easily that listing them seems pointless. You can't make this good.

[Vic Vega]

Two words: Grant Morrison.

I take the opposite view on this.

Had Morrison been given the "let the genius do whatever he wants" treatment at Marvel that he gets at DC he probably stays on
Xmen as long as he stayed on Batman.

So that is about 5 years of critically acclaimed writer (and artist... most likely-star writers get top artistic talent) and guaranteed top 10 sales before
you have to hand off the property to either a Whedon or Fraction.

The book might have other problems but creative irrelevancy would not be one of them.

[cranger]

When they started assassinating Xavier's character in the mid 00s to make Cyclops look good, that ugliness led into the pissing war with Wolverine and Beast and this whole whose right business.

I think the Xavier character assassination was more about two things aside from Cyclops:
1) assassinating Xavier's character to remove him from the picture, and
2) giving the X-Men as a whole a new direction that questioned "Xavier's Dream" as a mission statement

I don't think it was necessary, but I think they would have done the same no matter who the new leader was going to be just because that is how the X-Office thought at the time, and it should not come as a surprise this is one of the first big stories to follow House of M which many people have already pegged as a turning point.

[ariwl1]

When they started assassinating Xavier's character in the mid 00s to make Cyclops look good, that ugliness led into the pissing war with Wolverine and Beast and this whole whose right business.

Xavier has always been sketchy. Even in the beginning recruiting teenagers for a covert para-military squad came across as really iffy (only works for Zordon I guess).

But they REALLY over-did it post-Morrison. Shakey as it was, I could buy the Xavier + Magneto leads to Onslaught. But all the revelations from Astonishing on made me want to head --> desk. It was years before I stopped hating Danger just for existing.

[yogaflame]

Xavier has always been sketchy. Even in the beginning recruiting teenagers for a covert para-military squad came across as really iffy (only works for Zordon I guess).

But they REALLY over-did it post-Morrison. Shakey as it was, I could buy the Xavier + Magneto leads to Onslaught. But all the revelations from Astonishing on made me want to head --> desk. It was years before I stopped hating Danger just for existing.

I still hate Danger. And Whedon for that matter. Horrible.

[Zodlike]

The downturn started when they retconned Magneto's turn as Xorn during Morrison's run.

Then Bendis came aboard and instigated the gradual decline and ruin of Scott Summers/Cyclops by imputing his character with the extremist qualities of Magneto's crimes.

"Magneto Was Right", lest we forget, was a mutant activist slogan after the Sentinels slaughtered millions of mutants on Genosha, long before "Cyclops Was Right" became the version most readers after the 00's will be familiar with.

Bendis wanted to make Magneto a hero because of his character's ethnic background.

Cyclops had to be removed from the equation so that things yet to happen could come to pass.

As a bit of humour to finish up with, I fully expect Emma to become involved in a relationship with Tyke fairly soon.

[somacula]

The downturn started when they retconned Magneto's turn as Xorn during Morrison's run.

Then Bendis came aboard and instigated the gradual decline and ruin of Scott Summers/Cyclops by imputing his character with the extremist qualities of Magneto's crimes.

"Magneto Was Right", lest we forget, was a mutant activist slogan after the Sentinels slaughtered millions of mutants on Genosha, long before "Cyclops Was Right" became the version most readers after the 00's will be familiar with.

Bendis wanted to make Magneto a hero because of his character's ethnic background.

Cyclops had to be removed from the equation so that things yet to happen could come to pass.

As a bit of humour to finish up with, I fully expect Emma to become involved in a relationship with Tyke fairly soon.

A similar relationship to Jeen - OML, right? because I don't see Emma settling for the unfinished product

[Neko]

Two words: Grant Morrison.

Agreed. I know the writer has fans but the secondary mutation and the whole school thing took the franchise in a direction that wasn't the best for it. IMO

House of M: Specifically "No more Mutants"

A fix for the craze of making whatever mutant needed following the secondary mutation and school stuff.

Morrison changed things too much to the point where Marvel almost had to step in and do something. I think "no More Mutants" was a bit much but at that point Morrison had made it so that practically one out of every ten people was a mutant.

^^ Agreed. It needed to have been reigned in.

[yogaflame]

Agreed. I know the writer has fans but the secondary mutation and the whole school thing took the franchise in a direction that wasn't the best for it. IMO

To be fair, the expanded school concept was a mandate from Marvel editorial, due to the use of a large, young student body in the first X-Men film by Singer. This is in contrast to all previous X-Men canon, which never had more than 2 dozen mutants at Xavier's at a time(and that was only a brief time when both Gold/Blue X-Men teams and X-Force shared the same roof).

Furthermore, this is where the X-Men as teachers thing comes in too. While senior X-Men have always trained with their own teammates and the junior squads to a certain extent, they never pretended to be actual preparatory school teachers(other than Michael Xavier(Magneto's alter ego when he briefly was the New Mutants headmaster while Charles was in Shi-Ar space getting medical treatment).

In both cases(large student bodies and X-Men as teachers), Morrison executed them better than any later writers and any attempts on the big screen with Fox. It tends to neuter the characteristics of the X-Men themselves(Logan as a professor is laughable), and creates too many, underdeveloped(and thus highly expendable) students, which we see painfully in the movies and later comics. At least Morrison's student body were memorable(some still appear in main roles), and his core X-Men team still highly effective tactically.

[berserkerclaw]

Yeah the school has always been there. After morrison i think they focused on it to much though. Before it was Xavier doing most of it. And has,shown kitty and jubilee doing homework but then wheb everyone be ame teachers the X-Men in a sense took a back seat. They were less superhero then before. With Ressurrextion i hope they can dind new balance and refreash the line. The ititial line up seems a promising start.

[yogaflame]

Yeah the school has always been there. After morrison i think they focused on it to much though. Before it was Xavier doing most of it. And has,shown kitty and jubilee doing homework but then wheb everyone be ame teachers the X-Men in a sense took a back seat. They were less superhero then before. With Ressurrextion i hope they can dind new balance and refreash the line. The ititial line up seems a promising start.

Certainly it has been Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters from day one, but it was always a cover. It wasn't about algebra and literature, it was always about training in the Danger Room to master the use of your powers individually, and together, as a team. Singer's X-Men are primarily teachers, and secondarily (very weak and tactically limited) fighters. That was the big problem, and while Morrison expanded the school concept further than it had ever been in the comics, he at least still kept a tactically effective emergency response force(the X-Men) in the forefront, and their relationships with their students just behind.

Balance is certainly key.

[Ulfhammer]

The x-books where heavily underpinned by Jean and Scott's relationship for 25+ years. I'm hard pressed to find major story arcs between 1979 and 2006 that weren't effected or downright revolved around their relationship (with the notable exceptions of the Outback era of UXM and AoA). Their relationship was forever tainted by the phoenix retcon. Scott's moral authority as a leader was even more tainted after he left Maddie and Nathan and his affair with Emma. By the end of Morrison's run he was a leader due to his abilities but no longer carried the respect of the x-men nor of the larger MU in the way he did in the Silver Age.

Not only was Scott's morality tainted but he was heavily influenced by a very morally grey character in Emma. This situation culminated in Schism and AvX to a great degree leaving the x-men where they are today. Without the Phoenix retcon Scott rides off into the sunset and much of the internal x-men and MU conflict never happens. That's what CC intended and he knew that bringing Jean back was going to have major repercussions down the line.

The path Scott led the x-men down once he was on his own may have been entertaining for a while but it was not sustainable. Golden boy Scott and golden girl Jean is what helped hold the x-men together and allowed them to operate and push the mutant metaphor for many years. It would have been better to permanently retire them both in the mid 80's.

[Cykewasright]

2 words for you

Editorial Mandates