Ultimates²

[Ezyo1000]

I think you fail to understand the argument, then. If T'Challa was consistently as brilliant as he's portraid for brief moments of time (aka: "dues ex machina"), he would have fixed the universe(s) by himself by now. Pull him out of a cosmic level story and his smarts/ingenuity drops dramatically. He's just smart enough to deal with the scenario he's in.

That's why I make the parallel to Batman. Batman is a normal human who somehow can give Darkseid pause for no discernible reason other than he's batman and people want to see batman stay relevant so there he is. I know Panther is no batman, but he too tends to show up and fill that character niche a team may need, and has an intellect that will randomly scale to the event at hand so he stays relevant.

To me, at least, that quickly becomes irritating to read. He's basically punching way above his weight class due to his likability and "want" to have him in said story trumping if it makes sense. Hence my comment that as Ultimates continues to escalate, that becomes more and more apparent.

I'm sorry but your knowledge on T'Challa is severely lacking if you think his intellect falls off when he's not in a team Book. Read his solo's and you will see why that's not the case. He is not like Batman at all. He has consistently made a career out of taking out opponents above his weight class in teams books and solos alike. Read Priest's Black Panther and everything you have seen in Ultimates nakes plenty of sense, if anything maybe even still a little bit downplayed in how well and deadly T'Challa's prep capability is.

[Tiamatty]

caring too much is her flaw?

Actually, her biggest flaw would be her reluctance in accepting help. She said that she hates needing help, because it feels like failure. Additionally, she has trouble really letting people in. She makes an effort to keep people at arm's length, with her surly attitude being a major part of that. For example, this scene:

americasmile (2).jpg

This is her actually trying to push Lisa away. Her intent here was for Lisa to decide she's not worth bothering with. Luckily, Lisa's awesome and saw through her and made her laugh.

So, yeah, she has flaws. She has things she needs to work on.

[JKtheMac]

I have been musing on the very scant information we have about Chavez, and the fact that Gillen provided her origin. She may be being set up as a false messianic figure. She effectively comes from a realm described as the breath of the demiurge, which in this context means Wiccan in his future incarnation as the magician that changes the magical paradigm in his own image.

Interesting choice of word demiurge, while technically just meaning a secondary creator it is almost always used in a negative gnostic context suggesting a wilful hiding of the nature of reality. Put that together with the fact Chavez's memories are probably skewed by the fact she was only six when she ran away and appears to still be in the anger stage of grief, she may also be in denial about an unrevealed truth.

A super-powerful multiversal figure that was created by the demiurge, assuming a role possibly misguided by false memories and assuming leadership sounds a lot like a gnostic false messiah to me. I would probably dismiss this idea if Ewing didn't have a habit of picking up other writers threads, but he clearly does, and a writer like Gillen dosent throw around such loaded terms and mythological symbolism without at least knowing their potential use later.

[JKtheMac]

I have also been thinking about character legacy. Over the decades it has been a criticism often levelled at marvel that they hint at grand futures of characters but never get around to them. But interestingly, in the last few years there has been a distinct shift towards writer led continuity, in that every event strives to have real consequences and a knock on effect. This will allow some of these unrealised destinies to take place more readily.

In the most recent Bendis Tapes for example, Bendis expressed the idea that Carol, having tasted the possibility of becoming the most powerful hero in the universe, is still striving to realise this potential, this is what gives her the drive to act the way she did in CWII but it also explains why in her solo she was agonising about each step, and desperately trying to seek the perfect path through the moral maze. It also explains why she would take the responsibility herself despite her reservations.

Bendis was clearly expressing a vision for the character in the longer term that would position her as a great hero, and this recent episode being a stumble along the way. It would seem that at least for Carol, this is something the writing team have in mind for her. Her destiny is generally acknowledged and being worked on as we go.

[t hedge coke]

Probably because I'm such a fan of her accomplishments re military, government, and publishing, but Carol "striving," just bugs me, or Carol finding her way. It's not that the stories are bad, or that's a bad beat, necessarily, it's just not one that appeals to me as much as Carol being a badass.

The most recent solo lost me somewhere during the first arc (and not just because of the change in talent midway through that story), because she was just constantly overextending or questioning herself almost naively.

It's like reading about Punisher not knowing which end the bullets come out of, or seeing Daredevil read something off a computer screen. Wolverine turning down free beer.

Ewing, for me, has been a lot better about showing Carol as flawed, or things not always coming down to her, but without her struggling to keep up or treated as someone learning the ropes/working to be "good enough."

[JKtheMac]

Probably because I'm such a fan of her accomplishments re military, government, and publishing, but Carol "striving," just bugs me, or Carol finding her way. It's not that the stories are bad, or that's a bad beat, necessarily, it's just not one that appeals to me as much as Carol being a badass.

The most recent solo lost me somewhere during the first arc (and not just because of the change in talent midway through that story), because she was just constantly overextending or questioning herself almost naively.

It's like reading about Punisher not knowing which end the bullets come out of, or seeing Daredevil read something off a computer screen. Wolverine turning down free beer.

Ewing, for me, has been a lot better about showing Carol as flawed, or things not always coming down to her, but without her struggling to keep up or treated as someone learning the ropes/working to be "good enough."

But part of this is an embracing of her wider story. Carol has never been the certain one, she has more often been the conflicted figure trying to find her place. It would seem a little optimistic for her to suddenly be the badass even if it is the Carol you prefer. Bendis has hardly plucked this persona out of the blue, it is right there on the pages of her backstory.

[t hedge coke]

But part of this is an embracing of her wider story. Carol has never been the certain one, she has more often been the conflicted figure trying to find her place. It would seem a little optimistic for her to suddenly be the badass even if it is the Carol you prefer. Bendis has hardly plucked this persona out of the blue, it is right there on the pages of her backstory.

It's one of the go-to takes for her. One of.

I'm not pinning it on Bendis, I'm saying, I don't like it as much as other takes, regardless of who's doing it. The writers of her recent solo, Kurt Busiek. I like a competent, take charge Carol better, that's all.

[JKtheMac]

It's one of the go-to takes for her. One of.

I'm not pinning it on Bendis, I'm saying, I don't like it as much as other takes, regardless of who's doing it. The writers of her recent solo, Kurt Busiek. I like a competent, take charge Carol better, that's all.

Well continuity has become more a buffet than a set meal, but for me her words when fighting in the most recent CM issue (#10) ring very true to her character.

"A leader has to project confidence. Fight for what she believes in. But never stop questioning, wondering how to be better."

I imagine that is a philosophy we could both endorse.

[MouserGrey]

Probably because I'm such a fan of her accomplishments re military, government, and publishing, but Carol "striving," just bugs me, or Carol finding her way. It's not that the stories are bad, or that's a bad beat, necessarily, it's just not one that appeals to me as much as Carol being a badass.

The most recent solo lost me somewhere during the first arc (and not just because of the change in talent midway through that story), because she was just constantly overextending or questioning herself almost naively.

It's like reading about Punisher not knowing which end the bullets come out of, or seeing Daredevil read something off a computer screen. Wolverine turning down free beer.

Ewing, for me, has been a lot better about showing Carol as flawed, or things not always coming down to her, but without her struggling to keep up or treated as someone learning the ropes/working to be "good enough."

I find it interesting when someone else's favorite character is not to their liking in that characters solo but enjoys Ewing's take. I stopped reading the BP run cause I could not continue to read it. Ewing does a decent T'Challa. And from Mighty Avengers through the Ultimates I've enjoyed his strong grasp of continuity and the throwback feel I get from his writing. A few more fists flying would be nice.

[CentralPower]

It is actually more sensible to like "character as written by...." rather than "this character because they are awesome".

(For example, I do not care about Batman. But, I care about "Batman by Grant and Aparo". Or, Slott's Spider-Man is not DeFalco's.)

[CliffHanger2]

I admit I was worried about the art on this one but Foreman came out of nowhere and was really on point. Good replacement for Rocafort. This story seems to be moving at a faster pace which is good now that it isn't bogged down by CW. Luv what Ewing is doing with BM and Monica, BP and Carol's banter was funny. Maybe Ewing can take a stab at BP after Coates is done.

[Michael Watkins]

Actually, her biggest flaw would be her reluctance in accepting help. She said that she hates needing help, because it feels like failure. Additionally, she has trouble really letting people in. She makes an effort to keep people at arm's length, with her surly attitude being a major part of that. For example, this scene:

This is her actually trying to push Lisa away. Her intent here was for Lisa to decide she's not worth bothering with. Luckily, Lisa's awesome and saw through her and made her laugh.

So, yeah, she has flaws. She has things she needs to work on.

eh, that was all about creating a cute moment between MAC and her girlfriend. when I talk about "flaws," I'm talking about what posters on this site would use to attack her. think about how some posters talk about Carol. "she's bossy and evil. she's a fascist." be honest. did the panel you just post make you think less of America?

[Star_Jammer]

eh, that was all about creating a cute moment between MAC and her girlfriend. when I talk about "flaws," I'm talking about what posters on this site would use to attack her. think about how some posters talk about Carol. "she's bossy and evil. she's a fascist." be honest. did the panel you just post make you think less of America?

Are "bossy," "evil", and "fascist" fair critiques of Carol, or are they buzzwords people use for a sensationalist argument?

[Michael Watkins]

Are "bossy," "evil", and "fascist" fair critiques of Carol, or are they buzzwords people use for a sensationalist argument?

depends on your perspective. did you think Carol deserved to get hit in the face with a chair?

[Star_Jammer]

depends on your perspective. did you think Carol deserved to get hit in the face with a chair?

I think it was a little over-the-top. Instead of having a conversation, America jumps straight to punching (because, hey, she likes to punch). MAC isn't much for words. We witness this in Gillen's introduction to his version of her (with Loki) and at various points ever since.

Depending on one's perspective, that could be a flaw.