Ultimates²

[theoneandonly]

cosmic hierarchy is being violated pretty frequently with higher abstract entities violating celestial or whatever protocol they adhere to and attacking each other but it should be expected as the eight iteration of reality flourishes there will be a period of chaos where all entities will be vulnerable to the omniversal chaos and the cosmic jailer seems to have taken advantage of ol it to make eternity his prsoner. A Ideal situation for thanos to make a play. maybe the elders of universe and all other entities and celestials will become involved in this war but if so it is difficult to gauge what role the ultimates can play if all the heavy duty cosmic types poke their divine noses in this affair. Coming back to violation of celestial protocol the abstracts seem to have their minds addled if they attack the tribunal after being beaten by Galactus. seems like ample proof that the cosmic jailer has started manipulating events.

[Cmbmool]

I have to admit I'm truly amazed with how much detailed Ewing takes and how much reference he uses to Past events and moments. This is truly the Marvel Comic to look out for due to its expanding reaches throughout Marvel history.

[GrandEleven]

Tribunals don't die, they multiply. This isn't the last that we've seen of TLT.

I don't think this will kill TLT.

I think it's a power play of order and chaos. When it is clarified during the trial of Galactus that the new cosmic order is being formed it's little more than a natural conclusion that order and chaos would immediately attempt to reinforce and possibly extend their power and influence over the multiverse.

Going back to the rise of Adam Warlock as the newly appointed TLT, he stated clearly that he was more powerful than his predecessor in response to the outside threats from the Beyonders, as well as it seems clear that the One Above All would know that if it were judged to let "the powers form and fall as they will" that he would need a truly powerful mediator to let this drama pan out.

All in all I think this is just a great setup for a real cosmic power struggle. TOOA has decreed and the TLT enforces that the powers are allowed to define (and old power redefine) their roles and thus give the Ultimates some ... interesting possibilities. They are going to need some power cosmic to be relevant in the upcoming stories.

[jackolover]

I don't think this will kill TLT.

I think it's a power play of order and chaos. When it is clarified during the trial of Galactus that the new cosmic order is being formed it's little more than a natural conclusion that order and chaos would immediately attempt to reinforce and possibly extend their power and influence over the multiverse.

Going back to the rise of Adam Warlock as the newly appointed TLT, he stated clearly that he was more powerful than his predecessor in response to the outside threats from the Beyonders, as well as it seems clear that the One Above All would know that if it were judged to let "the powers form and fall as they will" that he would need a truly powerful mediator to let this drama pan out.

All in all I think this is just a great setup for a real cosmic power struggle. TOOA has decreed and the TLT enforces that the powers are allowed to define (and old power redefine) their roles and thus give the Ultimates some ... interesting possibilities. They are going to need some power cosmic to be relevant in the upcoming stories.

Does anybody understand any of this? How does this happen in laymans terms, or aren't we supposed to understand it? Is Ewing just fluffing up Cosmics but it really has no significants?

I'd like to think the Cosmics put Reed Richards on trial for what he did to the Multiverse. That would make more sense.

I'd like to know what role the Cosmics play in the Universe/Multiverse to begin with, because somehow these Cosmics have significance to holding things together somehow. They are symbolic of soul, space, evolution, structure, something that makes them relevant. It would be nice if someone explained that universe and Multiverse can't exist unless these Cosmics were in place, and seeing as how everything was destroyed, maybe the creation of whatever Cosmic has power over structure needs to be explained? At some point, the Beyonder killed all the Cosmics in the 6th iteration of the Multiverse. Who put them back together, and in what order, and was it a power struggle that set Cosmics in a heirachy? Did Reed create the Cosmics? No? Then who did, because they died?

[GrandEleven]

Does anybody understand any of this? How does this happen in laymans terms, or aren't we supposed to understand it? Is Ewing just fluffing up Cosmics but it really has no significants?

You're quoting me so I'm not sure if you think my explanation is completely wrong (which it could be) or if the general unfolding of events is just confusing/nonsensical ... but either way you've given me the perfect setup to soapbox for a bit ... so here I go.

TLDR version: there are certain aspects/characterizations I really don't like, but overall the promise of a great power struggle between gods has me rolling with it as I'm just a sucker for that kind of stuff.

Ever sense the TLT's death leading into the secret wars I've not liked Tribunal's character at all. I had always envisioned him as a constant, the final say just above order and chaos on how everything was, is, and will be. His rulings didn't need to make sense, but were always absolute. Such is the nature of what is effectively the will of the One Above All. When the Tribunal got involved it was because the fabric of everything was at risk, it's very rulings and words shaped reality unquestionably. The TLT was to be feared, respected, but above all else: represent conclusion.

I excused his death at the hands of the Beyonders only because I realized that this was a being that simply wouldn't let the secret wars happen otherwise, simply voting no on the whole thing and it would end there. After that I've disliked every time he's made an appearance, and my above explanation of TLT not being dead is a bit of hopeful projection on my part .. becuase if he can simply be killed off _again_ then he's devolved into little more than what Galactus used to be: a walking display of power to be beaten just to prove how intense things have gotten. (OMG! they beat TLT ... this is important!)

The idea that the most powerful Adam Warlock from the various multiverses got appointed as the new tribunal is not something I liked at all. It would have been better if he simply "was" again. Much like Gandolf the Grey returned as the White, TLT could simply return as it was deemed necessary. That would have been more fitting and more inline with the character. A conversation should have happened as to why, if he was so powerful, did he (or TOAA for that matter) let the multiverses collapse and be destroyed, and that conversation could have been much more mysterious and satisfying as opposed to "the other TLT thought he was powerful and Beyonders wrecked him ... what makes you better?", especially if TLT is about to die again.

I also don't like the idea that Order and Chaos would turn on TLT ... while given the explanation to spare Galactus it made sense, in general to me the abstracts should be more .... abstract with their power grab. They should make up the sum total of order and chaos in the universe, and their move for power should be felt as such instead of ... direct lasers to the head. Sudden rise in war, sudden evolutionary leaps occurring with new civilizations ... the effects of a power struggle or between Chaos and Order should not be a laser light show.

That said, I'm not completely against the idea of Eternity in chains or Galactus becoming a force of natural creation that has sweeping impacts on the mythological landscape as, at least to me, as we move down the pantheon ladder the beings become less abstract and more directly interacting with the universe. I'm OK with the concept that a brand new omniverse/multiverse could shake up things dramatically not just at the street level where Old Man Logan walks the streets with Miles Morales, but with a new Watcher and Galactus trying to balance things as well.

I'd like to think the Cosmics put Reed Richards on trial for what he did to the Multiverse. That would make more sense.

[/QUOTE]

This. This would be fantastic. But also I think one of your final questions feeds into the trial perfectly:

(...) Who put them back together, and in what order, and was it a power struggle that set Cosmics in a heirachy? Did Reed create the Cosmics? No? Then who did, because they died?

In this latest issue they at least have started hinting that the Shaper of Worlds has been replaced by them. He even mentioned the famous final line from secret wars "everything lives". Richards may be a genious, but he's still mortal and I would love to see the F4 go to trial in front of the Tribunal for the massive cosmic upset that has been set into motion that we could pin blame on for Shaper's death, Galactus' "reprogramming" and an imminent war between the lesser cosmics for new places of order (and chaos).

But I don't like the way the Abstracts are being handled at all. They should, by necessity, be above it. Mysterious constants moving the very universe(s) like pawns with something even greater than themselves passing judgement.

[penthotal]

In this latest issue they at least have started hinting that the Shaper of Worlds has been replaced by them. He even mentioned the famous final line from secret wars "everything lives". Richards may be a genious, but he's still mortal and I would love to see the F4 go to trial in front of the Tribunal for the massive cosmic upset that has been set into motion that we could pin blame on for Shaper's death, Galactus' "reprogramming" and an imminent war between the lesser cosmics for new places of order (and chaos).

Actually the Shaper of Worlds died because of his “herald” machinations not because of Reed, the complete story it's in the Secret Wars II tie ins of Silver Surfer.

[JudicatorPrime]

But I don't like the way the Abstracts are being handled at all. They should, by necessity, be above it. Mysterious constants moving the very universe(s) like pawns with something even greater than themselves passing judgement.

The abstracts have always played their self-serving part in the great scheme of things. It's part of the plurality of the cosmos. This is why TLT was necessarily manifest.

My problem with Order and Chaos is that they represent a previously failed order. They were superseded by Eternity and Death. If we're to view the omniverse as evolving, I think it would be cool to move from Chaos and Order, to Eternity and Death, to Infinity and Oblivion now -- and yes, bring back TLT to resolve any final arguments.

The one departure that I ask is that TLT not play so active a role in how everything gets resolved. Sometimes the highest court will throw a contest back to lower courts, if not the petitioners themselves to resolve. I think that's the role that Chaos, Order, Eternity and Death should play -- to be those lower courts. They could introduce avatars or other actors to settle the score, even if it's something as cosmically daunting as the Infinity Gauntlet or Beyonders. The role of TLT should be to rule on the law, not to legislate and ensure that there is a law. TLT should be totally impartial and therefore no longer a target for any entity that wishes to usurp the omniversal order. Order and Chaos attacking TLT would be completely pointless...because at the moment, there is no law. It's a new day and Galactus, Chaos, Order and others need to determine for themselves the rules of the game. Once they've done that, then TLT is empowered to arbitrate and if necessary, enforce.

Order and Chaos attacked TLT, which goes to prove the outdated flaw in their programming. They should have attacked Galactus and Anti-Man right then and there. It's the only way to impose their will on others. Destroying the court doesn't change the law.

[davew128]

I'd like to think the Cosmics put Reed Richards on trial for what he did to the Multiverse. That would make more sense.

Be a quick trial. Both Franklin and Owen would put a pretty quick stop to it.

[davew128]

But I don't like the way the Abstracts are being handled at all. They should, by necessity, be above it. Mysterious constants moving the very universe(s) like pawns with something even greater than themselves passing judgement.

Except ever since cosmic abstracts were introduced they've been shuffling for position. Death wanted more power relative to Eternity since she felt there was too much life. InBetweener existed to represent the struggle between Order and Chaos. The abstracts wanted power relative to but not over each other. Some of this was touched on in the old What if Korvac Won? and then again in the 90's Surfer series.

[jackolover]

Be a quick trial. Both Franklin and Owen would put a pretty quick stop to it.

Then I don't understand what the Abstracts are. Are they just Amoebas floating around outside the Multiverse? Why can't they be overseeing the Multiverse and whose tampering with it or creating it?

And if not, then are Reed, Owen, and Franklyn above the Abstracts, now, and the Living Tribunal can't touch them? Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order, Galactus, Ulysses are all just the mechanics of the Multiverse, like the inner workings, of anything created, but have no jurisdiction over how the Multiverse was created. They just have to like it lump it?

[theoneandonly]

I always have had sympathy for Galactus as he was once a human who became a god and now has to sustain himself by feasting on living energy whatever that signifies. No matter how many times he claimed to be Galactus who is beyong good or evil and all dualities he is haunted and tortured by his hunger and actions as shown when strange was able to shut his mind down in ff 244 by conjuring the illusions of his victims. glad to see that he is now standing up to the two cosmic bullies who want his whole existence to be a unending torture from which he may be released someday. he should zap them into being cosmically hungry all the time and find out for themselves if it is fun.

[XPac]

I always have had sympathy for Galactus as he was once a human who became a god and now has to sustain himself by feasting on living energy whatever that signifies. No matter how many times he claimed to be Galactus who is beyong good or evil and all dualities he is haunted and tortured by his hunger and actions as shown when strange was able to shut his mind down in ff 244 by conjuring the illusions of his victims. glad to see that he is now standing up to the two cosmic bullies who want his whole existence to be a unending torture from which he may be released someday. he should zap them into being cosmically hungry all the time and find out for themselves if it is fun.

Yeah, Byrne did a pretty amazing job of making Galactus a sympathetic being. I often end up rooting for the Big G even when he's not technically on the good guys side, because he got stuck with a pretty tough hand.

All that said, I still believe he should eventually return to his world eater thing. Him not eating planets takes too much away from the character.

[lordozone]

Is it possible that the cosmic jailer are the Chtulu-like creatures from the "Thanos Imperative" ? They were immortal creature who existed outside the creation and were a sort of an immortal cancer, a twisted antithesis of Death. And the "everything live" of Richards maybe, revived them and gave them more powers !

[davew128]

Then I don't understand what the Abstracts are. Are they just Amoebas floating around outside the Multiverse? Why can't they be overseeing the Multiverse and whose tampering with it or creating it?

And if not, then are Reed, Owen, and Franklyn above the Abstracts, now, and the Living Tribunal can't touch them? Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order, Galactus, Ulysses are all just the mechanics of the Multiverse, like the inner workings, of anything created, but have no jurisdiction over how the Multiverse was created. They just have to like it lump it?

I'm fairly certain Owen is above LT. He has the Beyonders power which killed it. The abstracts are mechanics of the UNIVERSE not the multiverse. Each universe has its own set of abstracts. I'd point out Starlin did a good job of pointing out the role of the abstracts in Infinity: The End. When Thanos absorbed the Heart of the Universe and effectively became God (and not quite God), Eternity begrudging answered to him in deference, whereas when Thanos had the IG Eternity fought but was beaten.

[davew128]

Is it possible that the cosmic jailer are the Chtulu-like creatures from the "Thanos Imperative" ? They were immortal creature who existed outside the creation and were a sort of an immortal cancer, a twisted antithesis of Death. And the "everything live" of Richards maybe, revived them and gave them more powers !

Hope not. Without another Deus Ex up their sleeves, 616 wouldn't survive another assault from the Cancer-Verse. Where Thanos now DOESN'T want to die, he'd likely side against his own universe and ensure its destruction.