Ultimates²

[PyroTwilight]

Ultimately I understand the wish for action (and I too would love more) but it reminds me of Star Trek. Action, drama, violence, explosions but more often than not no real physical fights.

[MindofShadow]

I'm a little lost as to why folks think any one character didn't get enough fighting beats. I love Adam. He's the big reason I'm reading Ultimates and he's been great here.

But...this isn't a typical superhero team book. This is like the science exploration part of the Fantastic Four amped up to the 15th level.

So yes he's powerful physically but that's not what the real focus is with him on this team. And it's not like Ewing is opposed to him fighting as we've seen in the tie-in's to Contest of Champions. Adam probably had the biggest role there even getting to otherwise outright beat up the Maestro.

Because Ewing said he was going to let him cut loose

... and then had him stand there while Carol and MAC get whooped on by Thanos.

If there was ever a time to cut loose... that woulda beeen a nice one

[PyroTwilight]

I wonder if he said that before or after stuff got changed to tie in to Civil War II (which is what I'd assume, alas). Course I also wonder what context he said it.

[JudicatorPrime]

So yes he's powerful physically but that's not what the real focus is with him on this team. And it's not like Ewing is opposed to him fighting as we've seen in the tie-in's to Contest of Champions. Adam probably had the biggest role there even getting to otherwise outright beat up the Maestro.

I'm just saying that those feats should be shown in the pages of Ultimates. Not in the Contest of Champions. Not in the pages of Squadron Supreme. In the Ultimates. Most kids don't have enough money to buy 3 books. If we want them to continue to drive sales of the Ultimates and get their money's worth, let's keep that action here as part of the Ultimates brand. It doesn't have to be zero sum. Ewing can do both, entertain us with highbrow concepts and treat us to some skull-busting along the way, esp., with characters who we don't usually get to see busting skulls at all. Carol and T'Challa have their own movies and their own titles. I would like to see the other team players have their moments in U2. This may very well be their only opportunities to develop their stories and grow in popularity to the point where they get their own books and movies down the road. That's all I'm saying.

[Michael Watkins]

is Mac an example of a positive/working Mary Sue?

[Mr MajestiK]

Because Ewing said he was going to let him cut loose

... and then had him stand there while Carol and MAC get whooped on by Thanos.

If there was ever a time to cut loose... that woulda beeen a nice one

When do black male characters get to "cut loose" against anyone who doesn't look like them?

[mace11]

When do black male characters get to "cut loose" against anyone who doesn't look like them?

Well Blue marvel beat the crap out of king hyperion for example.

[keeen]

Most kids don't have enough money to buy 3 books. If we want them to continue to drive sales of the Ultimates and get their money's worth, let's keep that action here as part of the Ultimates brand.

Out of context, as I don't care for the bulk of the argument, my question is: do you really think "kids" are reading Ultimates?

[GrandEleven]

Errrrr.... how about being one of the top 10 smartest people in the world lol?

All that power and punching did dick all when Thanos broke lose. It was Panther who came up with the device which stopped him.

And even fi he were a "walking deus ex machina"... they are going to need that when dealing with cosmic entities even beyond the powers of Adam, Monica, ect.

Panther is far from redundant. Adam is "weird science smart" but he isn't T'challa smart, especially when dealing with battle strategies.

You pretty much just made the "deus ex machina" case.

The _only_ reason T'Challa is so freakishly smart is the same reason Batman is: if he weren't he'd be useless to the team. He's "cool factor looking for value". I mean it's not like the other 9 smartest people in the 616 aren't _also_ super heroes. Heroes with better/more established powers to boot. Keep in mind the moment T'Challa comes out of the Ultimates that insane ability to shut down demi-gods using junk parts that happen to be lying around seems to vanish. So yeah ... he's just a walking Deus Ex Machina.

[Tiamatty]

You pretty much just made the "deus ex machina" case.

The _only_ reason T'Challa is so freakishly smart is the same reason Batman is: if he weren't he'd be useless to the team. He's "cool factor looking for value". I mean it's not like the other 9 smartest people in the 616 aren't _also_ super heroes. Heroes with better/more established powers to boot. Keep in mind the moment T'Challa comes out of the Ultimates that insane ability to shut down demi-gods using junk parts that happen to be lying around seems to vanish. So yeah ... he's just a walking Deus Ex Machina.

Again: His experiences with the Ultimates led to him seeing beyond. He's had the barest glimmer of the chains on existence. Not so he truly understand what he's seen, but he knows there's something. He is involved. That, as much as anything, justifies his continued presence in Ultimates 2.

[neohuey89]

When do black male characters get to "cut loose" against anyone who doesn't look like them?

that black on black violence.

[Star_Jammer]

is Mac an example of a positive/working Mary Sue?

"Mary Sue" usually has negative connotations associated with it, but I'm curious how you're attempting to apply it to MAC.

[Michael Watkins]

"Mary Sue" usually has negative connotations associated with it, but I'm curious how you're attempting to apply it to MAC.

usually. but I'm asking if she's the one exception.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment"

isn't that what Chavez is? young, powerful beyond belief, morally above the other team members, just rescued the team concept in a way...

[Star_Jammer]

usually. but I'm asking if she's the one exception.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment"

isn't that what Chavez is? young, powerful beyond belief, morally above the other team members, just rescued the team concept in a way...

How is she powerful beyond belief, if there are people more powerful than her? Are they way-way more powerful beyond belief?

Low-rank depends how you wish to view the character. She's been actively working in her "field" for around a decade (dependent upon her exact age). You could argue her origin is Mary Sue-ish, I suppose, but the stress is that she's earned her stripes.

And...morally above her team members...on one topic...? On a topic that's designed to be extremely polarizing for event-story purposes, but would probably be very polarizing regardless?

And Galactus rescued the team concept.

I guess I just don't really understand your application. She's not an author insert, isn't necessarily universally loved, and doesn't solve nearly every problem with no real reason to be able to (the original traits of a Mary Sue). I suppose helping me understand better (but not necessarily agreeing) could be aided by answering this question: Do you consider Riri Williams a Mary Sue?

[Michael Watkins]

How is she powerful beyond belief, if there are people more powerful than her? Are they way-way more powerful beyond belief?

Low-rank depends how you wish to view the character. She's been actively working in her "field" for around a decade (dependent upon her exact age). You could argue her origin is Mary Sue-ish, I suppose, but the stress is that she's earned her stripes.

And...morally above her team members...on one topic...? On a topic that's designed to be extremely polarizing for event-story purposes, but would probably be very polarizing regardless?

And Galactus rescued the team concept.

I guess I just don't really understand your application. She's not an author insert, isn't necessarily universally loved, and doesn't solve nearly every problem with no real reason to be able to (the original traits of a Mary Sue). I suppose helping me understand better (but not necessarily agreeing) could be aided by answering this question: Do you consider Riri Williams a Mary Sue?

I haven't read enough of Riri to make a judgment. is she very competent or all-knowing?